Ronald Koeman discussion

Khalekan · January 25, 2017

Barnfred 55 said:
Do you think Ronald will have the balls to go for it mate?

He did in the last game against Palace, but I've also seen him put up the barriers in other games when we've been drawing. Draws are neither use nor ornament to me. I'm not advocating going hell for leather from the first whistle Martinez style; but if the games in the balance with say, 20 minutes remaining, be positive like on Saturday when he threw Lookman on.

Think the biggest hurdle to overcome would be the fans reaction to losing. At the moment we'll take a draw above a defeat every day of the week. But, in my opinion, we need to learn to be able to look at the bigger picture and sacrifice a few defeats in the pursuit of more wins. It goes against the grain even as I'm writing it.

For example, a typical decent season for us over the years would be W15, D14, L9. Points 59.

If we were to win just half of those drawn games, W22 L16. Points 66.

That's the difference between euro qualification most seasons.

I don't see he wouldn't go for it.

And as long as we see the young players being given a chance and performances, even without results, suggesting we are on an upward curve then the fans will be pretty forgiving.

It gives some focus and purpose to the remainder of our season.

Otherwise we are now in the longest pre season in history

roydo · January 25, 2017

davek said:
Steady Eddie is another way of putting it.

At times, sure.

Injuries, sending offs, quality of oppo can all mean a different approach than "go for broke time after time"

hktoffee · January 25, 2017

davek said:
Right on the money.

That is exactly what you have to do to get enough points to challenge for top 4 in this league. You have to throw caution to the wind especially if a game is fizzling out to a stalemate. That's how we ran up 21 wins out of 38 games in 2013/14 and it's the ONLY way we'll ever trouble those places again. It's why I feel sure Koeman will never get near one of those spots. He's not as conservative as Moyes, but he's not a feller who would - as a policy - go for broke time after time.

This again. Do you remember how many league games we won in the last 2 seasons? 21 bar the Unsy match. Yes 2 seasons combined which indicated that set of one-way stupid tactic did not work. You should use the league results last time we won the league as an example. You are talking about ONE season. This will be more convincing.

davek · January 25, 2017

roydo said:
At times, sure.

Injuries, sending offs, quality of oppo can all mean a different approach than "go for broke time after time"

Ceteris paribus regarding those factors, any manager must go all guns blazing if a club like ours wants to nose into those top spots.

In for a penny in for a pound

davek · January 25, 2017

hktoffee said:
This again. Do you remember how many league games we won in the last 2 seasons? 21 bar the Unsy match. Yes 2 seasons combined which indicated that set of one-way stupid tactic did not work. You should use the league results last time we won the league as an example. You are talking about ONE season. This will be more convincing.

In there https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/martinez-new-belgium-head-coach.90386/page-107

roydo · January 25, 2017

davek said:
Ceteris paribus regarding those factors, any manager must go all guns blazing if a club like ours wants to nose into those top spots.

In for a penny in for a pound

Dont know what that means, but I have quite liked the way Koeman has played different stuff and player, seems to have settled on what has been a pretty decent formation, (always a dose of luck and judgement that), and seems to be happy to do whats needed to win a football match.

Think getting a few more additions in is more likely to challenge the teams above rather than telegraphing to the entire league exactly how he will approach every single game regardless.

hktoffee · January 25, 2017

davek said:
In there https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/martinez-new-belgium-head-coach.90386/page-107

No dave is the above link for you? I made a reply due to you talk about this.

You have to throw caution to the wind especially if a game is fizzling out to a stalemate. That's how we ran up 21 wins out of 38 games in 2013/14 and it's the ONLY way we'll ever trouble those places again.

And I asked you how many games we had won in the last two seasons...the tactics were literally the same as the 2013/2014 season. I also asked you why didn't you use the league results and tactics when we won the league or even the time when Moyes got 4th as some kind of method that Koeman shall aim to build his team for? A solid defence is the first priority if Koeman is going to break the ceiling.

davek · January 25, 2017

roydo said:
Dont know what that means, but I have quite liked the way Koeman has played different stuff and player, seems to have settled on what has been a pretty decent formation, (always a dose of luck and judgement that), and seems to be happy to do whats needed to win a football match.

Think getting a few more additions in is more likely to challenge the teams above rather than telegraphing to the entire league exactly how he will approach every single game regardless.

I'll be happier when we I see a discernible style for us under Koeman...or more specifically an ethos - are we a team that goes for it or one that is by and large cautious? I don't think in this league we need to tailor that for opponents. We've just turned Arsenal and City over, so why should we hold back against any other teams?

Just go for it. What is there to lose? If we did that we'd pile more wins and therefore points up than if we were setting up and settling for draws.

Fortune favours the brave.

davek · January 25, 2017

hktoffee said:
No dave is the above link for you? I made a reply due to you talk about this.

You have to throw caution to the wind especially if a game is fizzling out to a stalemate. That's how we ran up 21 wins out of 38 games in 2013/14 and it's the ONLY way we'll ever trouble those places again.

And I asked you how many games we had won in the last two seasons...the tactics were literally the same as the 2013/2014 season. I also asked you why didn't you use the league results and tactics when we won the league or even the time when Moyes got 4th as some kind of method that Koeman shall aim to build his team for? A solid defence is the first priority if Koeman is going to break the ceiling.

(Again) in there please....

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/martinez-new-belgium-head-coach.90386/page-107

roydo · January 25, 2017

davek said:
I'll be happier when we I see a discernible style for us under Koeman...or more specifically an ethos - are we a team that goes for it or one that is by and large cautious? I don't think in this league we need to tailor that for opponents. We've just turned Arsenal and City over, so why should we hold back against any other teams?

Just go for it. What is there to lose? If we did that we'd pile more wins and therefore points up than if we were setting up and settling for draws.

Fortune favours the brave.

I think the last few matches have cast a light of that imo. Swallows and summers and all that.

A long standing and well known City fan I met today, when he clocked my EFC hat, said he has never seen an Everton team destroy "new" City like we did.

Now, I dont think we "destroyed" them, despite the scoreline. But the comment from an outsider made me think. Koeman knew how Pep would play it, and set up to; 1. Minimise that threat, and 2. Maximise that approach.

Result. 4 0.

That, imo is a Manager. He Manages without being welded to one theory.

nsno-chris · January 25, 2017

Ronkys 3 step, 1st year plan:
Step 1 - return some form of credibility to our form after the absolute mess left behind
Step 2 - shift out all the garbage that was brought into the club over the past 36 months
Step 3 - finish in a respectable league position that doesn't make us a laughing stock and actually gives us a platform to improve and build

I'd say the Dutch God is well on course

Is right Ronkster, up Everton

JLW · January 25, 2017

davek said:
Right on the money.

That is exactly what you have to do to get enough points to challenge for top 4 in this league. You have to throw caution to the wind especially if a game is fizzling out to a stalemate. That's how we ran up 21 wins out of 38 games in 2013/14 and it's the ONLY way we'll ever trouble those places again. It's why I feel sure Koeman will never get near one of those spots. He's not as conservative as Moyes, but he's not a feller who would - as a policy - go for broke time after time.

I would assume and hope in the next 6-8 games we have pulled well away from the teams below us, therefore 7th place is the minimum we can achieve, so we would have nothing to lose going for the 3 points in every game we play. Koeman plays to win every game anyway, but not in a cavalier type way, If we can keep up our home form and somehow beat one of RS/Spurs/UTD away (which of course will be difficult) then there is every chance we will be amongst them with a few games remaining.

You have said yourself this season is a 'free pass' (i don't believe there will be pressure from the board to get results this season) so its a win win situation.
To even get us close while offloading 'deadwood' and rebuilding in his first season is good management.

Caolam · January 25, 2017

If it was as simple as selecting a team and just "going for it" we would all be premier league managers, and successful one's at that.

Barnfred 55 · January 25, 2017

roydo said:
Good. Flexibility over ideology any day of the week for me.

The context of this conversation is our ability to close the gap on top 4 by the end of the season. I commented that draws were no good to us, so if we were drawing games with 15/20 mins to go then we should go all out for the win, albeit exposing us to greater risk of defeat.

I believe Davek would like us to have this attitude all the time (in similar match circumstances) and I can understand this argument.

MrGrumpy · January 25, 2017

davek said:
I'll be happier when we I see a discernible style for us under Koeman...or more specifically an ethos - are we a team that goes for it or one that is by and large cautious? I don't think in this league we need to tailor that for opponents. We've just turned Arsenal and City over, so why should we hold back against any other teams?

Just go for it. What is there to lose? If we did that we'd pile more wins and therefore points up than if we were setting up and settling for draws.

Fortune favours the brave.

who is the last time to go all out for it and win the league? all successful teams are built on a solid defense with a strong attack. That defend properly and not go all out from the 1st whistle to the last.