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Ronald Koeman discussion

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Amw79 said:
Yeah, take your point about overall style, but I've thought since the outset, that Koeman's style isn't about directing players to lump it upfield as the attacking strategy; rather, a lot of our long balls have been when defenders are put under pressure, they're playing safety first, and clearing the lines.

Now, I put some of that down to Koeman instructing them not to take stupid chances unnecessarily, which I'm all for (as we lost too many goals previously due to this), and I put some of it down to individual player confidence, and concern over making a crucial mistake, so they take the safe option - again, see some of City's horrendous risk-taking when we played them.

I did some stats collation on this recently, which I'll post up here later, on long ball frequency, and by and large it's been consistent at around 5-6% of our completed passes and around 10-11% of the attempted passes (from memory - that could be wrong); the notable exceptions have been Liverpool and Man City (both Games).

It should also be said, that we have, at times, played some ace stuff this season, which I would expect to increase, if we continue our good run, and our players gain a bit of confidence.
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I agree that there's lots of good signs right now, and it's nice to read some posts that don't paint the issues in black and white. player confidence in whatever tactic plays a part.

I would say though that there is a point to the passing out from the back and it's harsh to judge the overall tactic too strongly just based on the the last two seasons here which was just a general mess and the current poor form at City in a new managers first season. If used as the primary tactic and implemented well it opens up a lot of space for a team controlling possession and for me is preferable to a policy of clearing the lines and always getting it forward as quickly as possible with passes or punts that the opposition have a very good of chance of eating up and coming back at you. Although every defence will hoof it clear at least once in a while.

It was said elsewhere here this week that Koeman could bring a mixture of the Dogs Of War and School of Science and thinking more on it's exactly what the long suffering season ticket holders want. If the City win was a template for Koemans plan then I'm well up for it. The gritty hard fought wins under Moyes with Cahill taking on the whole defensive line mixed with some of the great passing and winning displays in Martinez first season sounds perfect to me.
 
bicycleheader said:
I agree that there's lots of good signs right now, and it's nice to read some posts that don't paint the issues in black and white. player confidence in whatever tactic plays a part.

I would say though that there is a point to the passing out from the back and it's harsh to judge the overall tactic too strongly just based on the the last two seasons here which was just a general mess and the current poor form at City in a new managers first season. If used as the primary tactic and implemented well it opens up a lot of space for a team controlling possession and for me is preferable to a policy of clearing the lines and always getting it forward as quickly as possible with passes or punts that the opposition have a very good of chance of eating up and coming back at you. Although every defence will hoof it clear at least once in a while.

It was said elsewhere here this week that Koeman could bring a mixture of the Dogs Of War and School of Science and thinking more on it's exactly what the long suffering season ticket holders want. If the City win was a template for Koemans plan then I'm well up for it. The gritty hard fought wins under Moyes with Cahill taking on the whole defensive line mixed with some of the great passing and winning displays in Martinez first season sounds perfect to me.
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Yeah, I generally agree. Think there's somewhere between, building from the back, and the bit in bold above, and that's were I see us currently.

It's defo better to build from the back, when the situation allows, but as someone pointed out elsewhere, a fullback getting into the opposition half or final third, then turning round and going all the way back, and trying again on the other flank, has a terrible effect on the crowd.

To my eye, we are trying to build from the back, when we've got a bit of time on the ball, but just not doing it on the edge of our 6 yard box, or when a defender is isolated and got 2 attackers pressing them.

My original point though, was that there seems to be a meme that the last few years has been some type of total football, and now this season, although better in terms of points, is a downturn in terms of performance and style.

I'm not buying that, and I don't think people should kid themselves that we were previously playing this amazingly aesthetic style.

Watching Jags and Mori playing 10 yard passes to each other for 10 minutes, is hardly like watching Barca.
 

I don't get the obsession that some have with having to play "good" football instead of focussing on winning.

City are supposed to play the best football and our play and chance creation was miles better than theirs when we played them.

Regardless of how a team plays football, the priority is winning the match. Even then though, I've thought that since the Arsenal game (and including it) we've played some brilliant football even against the negative sides.

Clean sheets, quick attacks and 3 points.

#RonKnows
 
Deco said:
I don't get the obsession that some have with having to play "good" football instead of focussing on winning.

City are supposed to play the best football and our play and chance creation was miles better than theirs when we played them.

Regardless of how a team plays football, the priority is winning the match. Even then though, I've thought that since the Arsenal game (and including it) we've played some brilliant football even against the negative sides.

Clean sheets, quick attacks and 3 points.

#RonKnows
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I thought it's been quite balanced personally. We played some incredible football under Martinez, but there was no balance. We sacrificed the ability to defend to play that football. Now we are playing in different ways against different teams which A. Is good for having seperate plans. B. Makes us entirely less predictable and C. It also helps the players with confidence. We played all the way to the 90th minute against Palace and were rewarded for it. The players know the changes that get made will have some effect, and they'll get a chance or two... The old way was play this way.. and if you paly that way for 70mins and do nothing, naturally you are disbelieve by that time and not go for the full 90.

I have to admit, I wasn't sold on Koeman at all, up until that Arsenal game. It wasn't clear what he was trying to do, how he was trying to do it. Now, a month or so later, it's clear. Players are used to it, fitness seems to be massively increased.

My main like is that he at least has more than one plan for a game. In the past month as well we seem to have been a bit more pro-active rather than reactive. Making changes before the classic everton suckerpunch arrives, going on the offensive and being a little more risky at 0-0 rather than as soon as we go a goal down.
 
Deco said:
I don't get the obsession that some have with having to play "good" football instead of focussing on winning.

City are supposed to play the best football and our play and chance creation was miles better than theirs when we played them.

Regardless of how a team plays football, the priority is winning the match. Even then though, I've thought that since the Arsenal game (and including it) we've played some brilliant football even against the negative sides.

Clean sheets, quick attacks and 3 points.

#RonKnows
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Crunching tackles, lung busting runs, well worked goals. Strip all the superficial stuff away and football is a simple game. Koeman is making it simple but effective.

The goals against City were all special moments. Davies's moment of brilliance, the team goal for the first or Lookman's lucky break. Special moments that have little to do with a preference of how a manager sets his team out.
 
Deco said:
I don't get the obsession that some have with having to play "good" football instead of focussing on winning.

City are supposed to play the best football and our play and chance creation was miles better than theirs when we played them.

Regardless of how a team plays football, the priority is winning the match. Even then though, I've thought that since the Arsenal game (and including it) we've played some brilliant football even against the negative sides.

Clean sheets, quick attacks and 3 points.

#RonKnows
Click to expand...

I think it's often a pointless discussion, as opinions are divided from the start when one side thinks the sport is about winning and trophies and the other side thinks football is about more than that.

Once you differ from that point then it's a bit futile discussing style over results because you are starting from a completely different set of priorities.

I don't think either are wrong and wouldn't think Koeman wrong if he had us doing a Wimbledon revival act, but I still have my own preference.
 

Amw79 said:
Yeah, I generally agree. Think there's somewhere between, building from the back, and the bit in bold above, and that's were I see us currently.

It's defo better to build from the back, when the situation allows, but as someone pointed out elsewhere, a fullback getting into the opposition half or final third, then turning round and going all the way back, and trying again on the other flank, has a terrible effect on the crowd.

To my eye, we are trying to build from the back, when we've got a bit of time on the ball, but just not doing it on the edge of our 6 yard box, or when a defender is isolated and got 2 attackers pressing them.

My original point though, was that there seems to be a meme that the last few years has been some type of total football, and now this season, although better in terms of points, is a downturn in terms of performance and style.

I'm not buying that, and I don't think people should kid themselves that we were previously playing this amazingly aesthetic style.

Watching Jags and Mori playing 10 yard passes to each other for 10 minutes, is hardly like watching Barca.
Click to expand...

Again the ball repeatedly going out wide then all the way back to defence is not the tactic though, it's the tactic being implemented poorly and yes it is dull. And as you said earlier lots of factors like player confidence and form affect that. Our movement has been atrocious for much of this and the last two seasons. hOpefully permanently improving right now with fresh faces.

On your point about the meme, you are right but it's not just a problem in that discussion in particular. It's a problem in football discussion in general. There's good and bad from the Martinez years but it's all been boiled down into constantly repeated soundbites. It's being done with Koeman already. Discussion over his reluctance to use youth team players has already become "he used Davies......So you were wrong" or "he should have done it earlier, so I'm still right"...And there's little tolerance of the others point. You'll see sensible reasoned posts get passed over because it's easier for some to jump on some simple post that they don't agree with.

Anyways it's the way of football fans and forums. You could probably already predict some of the Koeman arguments that will come about after he leaves.
 
ijjysmith said:
I see loads of common sense being posted in here today it's great.

I still firmly believe that Koeman is doing a great job given the tools he's had to work with. Now give him his own tools and watch him go.

As for the whole style thing, if we won every game 1-0 and won the league I think i'd be OK with that.
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This was my thing. It's not that our team was absolute crap (there were sprinkles of talent in there), but it wasn't the team that Koeman wanted to inherit. He adjusted his style to suit the players (sign of good managing), and our style will continually evolve until he gets the team he wants. At least he has shown the ability to adapt to the situation at hand.
 

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