Ronald Koeman discussion

[Tony Hibbert's 3rd leg]

Good post, but I think it maybe portrays all the decisions made by Koeman so far as being pre-planned and co-ordinated - that he was the ultimate pragmatist who took what was lying around when he arrived and moulded it with his emerging method.

I don't buy that. I think he showed impatience in the first few months by playing players in a way that failed to use their talents to get on the ball and combine. He forced a way of playing onto this group that was alien to them - one emphasising physicality and lots of pace and eschewing any attempt to consistently dominate the possession and opposition. It led to a sterile lump it long game typified by a deep played ball out from the back to Bolaisie...which seemed our only, highly predictable, tactic in games. Since the Watford game in December - notwithstanding a few lapses - he recognised that until he gets his own players in he must use these players in the fashion they previously played in. In other words, his pragmatism only displayed itself at that latter point. It took four and a half months for the penny to drop and for him to drop his attempt to mould material to a shape they were incapable of bending to.

After this summer and he gets more of his own players in and a preseason, then I believe we'll see a switch to his preferred way of playing - which emphasises pace and athleticism and we'll then see what Koeman is about. What we see now is NOT a Koeman team playing Koeman football.

Which is why its intriguing to see how long we can go on a good run of games. He faces a dilemma if the current system works. Does he get players to fit the current system or players to fit his system like at Southampton? There's a few key differences.

He played 2 dynamic forwards and a striker with Southampton, and his strikers would often share the goals between whilst the forwards chipped in as well. Obviously he felt he would wait to the summer until solve this problem because now we only have one natural wide player fit in Lennon.

We have a natural goal scorer, who is aided by an engine room midfield. Lukaku's future is key to this. If stays, I doubt we'll see a drastic change to the system. If you play two wingers with him in the team you are wasting a players. The team suffers defensively.

The different systems will require different ventures in the transfer market. If we stick with the current 3-5-2, we will need defensive and wing back cover (Keeper is priority regardless), and we won't see many forwards come in other than squad players.

If we revert to Koeman's 4-3-3, we'll see forwards come in, and if Lukaku does leave sooner rather than later we will see 2 or three striking options akin to what he had at Saints (Long, Pelle, Austin).

I have a feeling this is all resting on the Lukaku situation. He scores goals, he can change games. But the uncertainty of his future is also making the future make up of our team uncertain.

 

[davek]

Dave so you think atm we are playing the same or similar way to last season then given your stating we switched back to what their used to playing?

Ignoring we are changing formation in game, pressing massively more than I've ever seen in the past years, not playing any out and out wingers and using the fullbacks for width, how is any if that similar to recent years?

That's largely tactics mate, not the method adopted. Yes we are pressing much better than last season but it's what we do with the ball that's reverted to the way we played before Koeman. When we get it we make use of it by building moves, we don't just pump it forward as was the case under this feller until very recently. That's where the change has taken place. He's given these players their head and stopped stifling that. As said, Bolaises injury was crucial in that respect. But know this: next season that will change. Bolasie, his game and players like him are the future of this club and the style of play will reflect that. We have yet to see Koemans Everton. Anyone thinking this is it are not paying attention.

 

[davek]

Talk about welcoming a newcomer to the forum !!

I agree with Pedro on this and you are making assumptions to suit the anti Koeman stand you have taken.

The one thing we know for sure is that since Watford, Everton have played better football evidenced by our results

You dont want to give RK credit for this so have come up with this theory that he's doing it out of necessity and against his better judgement.

What a welcome to a newcomer? I said he made a good post. Are you actually reading these posts you comment on?

 

[davek]

lol ...do you write for a living mate? If not, you should think of taking it up; your flights of fancy are pure gold.

Yeah, sounds great that, but are you able to deny what's being written if you disagree with it? I doubt it, because that analysis is right on the money. If it isn't the floor is yours....

 

[degsy]

Good post, but I think it maybe portrays all the decisions made by Koeman so far as being pre-planned and co-ordinated - that he was the ultimate pragmatist who took what was lying around when he arrived and moulded it with his emerging method.

I don't buy that. I think he showed impatience in the first few months by playing players in a way that failed to use their talents to get on the ball and combine. He forced a way of playing onto this group that was alien to them - one emphasising physicality and lots of pace and eschewing any attempt to consistently dominate the possession and opposition. It led to a sterile lump it long game typified by a deep played ball out from the back to Bolaisie...which seemed our only, highly predictable, tactic in games. Since the Watford game in December - notwithstanding a few lapses - he recognised that until he gets his own players in he must use these players in the fashion they previously played in. In other words, his pragmatism only displayed itself at that latter point. It took four and a half months for the penny to drop and for him to drop his attempt to mould material to a shape they were incapable of bending to.

After this summer and he gets more of his own players in and a preseason, then I believe we'll see a switch to his preferred way of playing - which emphasises pace and athleticism and we'll then see what Koeman is about. What we see now is NOT a Koeman team playing Koeman football.

Winning Football is good football, it mightn't be highly technical or even School of Science, but it's better than loosing football.
And I'll give you that just now it mightn't even get the magically 72Pts
but it's better than losing football

He's checked the oil battery and plugs, got the car started, then took it for a drive. It coughed a bit so he tweaked the timing...
It's getting us from A to B. It might even get us from 7th to 6th or even 5th down hill
Yes it might need a new engine soon...or at least a rebore, pistons and a valve job
The respray and concourse finish can wait a bit

 

[MikeH72]

That's largely tactics mate, not the method adopted. Yes we are pressing much better than last season but it's what we do with the ball that's reverted to the way we played before Koeman. When we get it we make use of it by building moves, we don't just pump it forward as was the case under this feller until very recently. That's where the change has taken place. He's given these players their head and stopped stifling that. As said, Bolaises injury was crucial in that respect. But know this: next season that will change. Bolasie, his game and players like him are the future of this club and the style of play will reflect that. We have yet to see Koemans Everton. Anyone thinking this is it are not paying attention.

That's rich really from a person that doesn't go to or watch Everton matches.

 

[degsy]

Utter laughing stock you

you left out official GOT click-baiter-in-chief and WUM.

 

[royalblue66]

That's rich really from a person that doesn't go to or watch Everton matches.

Is that right mate. ?

 

[MikeH72]

Is that right mate. ?

I thought it was well known on here

 

[davek]

Which is why its intriguing to see how long we can go on a good run of games. He faces a dilemma if the current system works. Does he get players to fit the current system or players to fit his system like at Southampton? There's a few key differences.

He played 2 dynamic forwards and a striker with Southampton, and his strikers would often share the goals between whilst the forwards chipped in as well. Obviously he felt he would wait to the summer until solve this problem because now we only have one natural wide player fit in Lennon.

We have a natural goal scorer, who is aided by an engine room midfield. Lukaku's future is key to this. If stays, I doubt we'll see a drastic change to the system. If you play two wingers with him in the team you are wasting a players. The team suffers defensively.

The different systems will require different ventures in the transfer market. If we stick with the current 3-5-2, we will need defensive and wing back cover (Keeper is priority regardless), and we won't see many forwards come in other than squad players.

If we revert to Koeman's 4-3-3, we'll see forwards come in, and if Lukaku does leave sooner rather than later we will see 2 or three striking options akin to what he had at Saints (Long, Pelle, Austin).

I have a feeling this is all resting on the Lukaku situation. He scores goals, he can change games. But the uncertainty of his future is also making the future make up of our team uncertain.

I completely agree. Lukaku holds the key and I do believe he's as good as gone...and that is enormous for all the reasons you outline regarding the approach we take to our attacking play and team shape.

No matter how much Koeman likes Lukak - and who wouldnt like a striker who gets him 16 goals and counting - he likes his own way of organisation much more. If a massive fee can be fetched for RL then Koeman will use it to restructure.

 

[royalblue66]

I thought it was well known on here

I had my doubts, cos I always thought the miserable fella that sits by me was Dave.

 

[davek]

He's checked the oil battery and plugs, got the car started, then took it for a drive. It coughed a bit so he tweaked the timing...
It's getting us from A to B. It might even get us from 7th to 6th or even 5th down hill
Yes it might need a new engine soon...or at least a rebore, pistons and a valve job
The respray and concourse finish can wait a bit

Well he was putting diesel in when he should have been putting in petrol for most of the time he's owned this car.

 

[degsy]

Well he was putting diesel in when he should have been putting in petrol for most of the time he's owned this car.

I thought he was using the old fat from the Fat Van/Blue Dragon in some of his games.
I yearn for the days when you could take a 69-70 Mk. II Cortina to bits with a 10, 13, 17 & 19mm spanners, a screw driver and a hammer.

 

[JLW]

I completely agree. Lukaku holds the key and I do believe he's as good as gone...and that is enormous for all the reasons you outline regarding the approach we take to our attacking play and team shape.

No matter how much Koeman likes Lukak - and who wouldnt like a striker who gets him 16 goals and counting - he likes his own way of organisation much more. If a massive fee can be fetched for RL then Koeman will use it to restructure.

Which one of the handful of clubs that have the finances to sign Lukaku (65-70m) do you see him playing for next season?
Also RK doesnt need the sale of Lukaku to restructure the team/club, he has a very wealthy Iranian for that...

 

[bluestevon]

That's largely tactics mate, not the method adopted. Yes we are pressing much better than last season but it's what we do with the ball that's reverted to the way we played before Koeman. When we get it we make use of it by building moves, we don't just pump it forward as was the case under this feller until very recently. That's where the change has taken place. He's given these players their head and stopped stifling that. As said, Bolaises injury was crucial in that respect. But know this: next season that will change. Bolasie, his game and players like him are the future of this club and the style of play will reflect that. We have yet to see Koemans Everton. Anyone thinking this is it are not paying attention.

If you think saints just pumped it forward Dave under koeman then how do you explain the fact that Everton played considerably more long balls than did saints last season?

 

[Barnfred 55]

What a welcome to a newcomer? I said he made a good post. Are you actually reading these posts you comment on?

I did read it Dave.

What you actually said was "Good post. But". Then went on to explain in detail why his assessment was wrong. Then gave him the Davek mantra on the world of Ronald Koeman.

However, just for good order I read both posts again. I had initially read them on my phone and didn't pick up that Pedro was actually responding to one of your posts too, I only picked up the Tony Hibberts Leg bit. So in that regard Pedro put himself in your firing line so to speak. I'm sure he was probably a voyeur of the site before becoming a member so he should have known what type of reply to expect.

Plus there was more than a bit of tongue in cheek in my newcomer comment. I thought you knew me well enough to have recognised that mate..