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Ronald Koeman discussion

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I'm glad you brought up this corresponding fixture from last season. That friggin balloon Mirallas was sent off in the first half and we still went two up and played WHU off the park. Yes, the collapse happened. But the point is that even with 10 men we played more attacking football against a much better WHU than the one we faced today.

Love this. Like a textbook example of confirmation bias. Remembers Mirallas sent off and the attacking football. But only a tiny nod to "yes the collapse happened", which was the most important bit of the game.

I remember as soon as Lukaku missed the penalty everyone knew we were in trouble - at 2-0 up. As soon as West Ham got the first, most knew we'd go on to lose. When the collapse did happen it was no surprise.

There was the awful Martinez sub. And the total lack of game management that summed up his tenure.

This season we had a ropey first 20 mins (although WH didn't have many clear chances). We finished the half the better
(Would have led but for a great save to deny Ross). Second half, much better, scored as we were increasing pressure. A dodgy 15 mins after we scored when we looked a bit stand-offish. Then finished really strongly, were denied a clear penalty, and Rom a bit unlucky with a volley straight at the keeper at the end of a great move.

Can't believe anyone would use a comparison of those 2 games as anything other than a show of our improvement.
 
Mate (and I dont blame you for not knowing this) but people in this city years ago would go one week to see Everton and one week to see Liverpool, not because they had a corinthian spirit but because it was top flight (usually) professional football that they could watch of a Saturday afternoon. Tribalism didn't come int it.

Honest to God, you have this completely wrong. It beggars belief that you think football played by highly skilled men/teams who get paid a fortune for it isn't there to entertain people. It was always thus, maybe the wages and corporate side have ballooned, but the essence of professional football was that it was a paid for entertainment provided by entrepreneurs who corralled thousands into grounds in our towns and cities and the massive rivalries came out of that. The jumpers for goalposts years was a primitive amateurism and was not the golden era that became corrupted...it was a different beast altogether.

As one of those who 'came in' at the end of that era - that home and away thing...I can tell you it had nothing to do with tribalism, more it was because:
a) there was 'K all else to do
b) You went with your mates who were both red and blue
c) If you were married it got you out of the wife's way and was an excuse to meet your mates for beer.


Ruud Gullit's been talking about Koeman on the BBC. Nothing mentioned is surprising but worth a look. Sorry don't know how to attach the link, so copied.

Everton boss Ronald Koeman: 'Precise, pragmatic and likes different coloured pens'
_84553802_ruudgullit_bbc.jpg

By Ruud Gullit


How you train is how you play - true then, and now
_92157077_ronaldkoemantakesanevertontrainingsession.jpg

Koeman gives instructions to his players during an Everton training session
That course was 18 years ago but Koeman is still a very pragmatic guy who loves to have a structure in place, which is part of the reason he has made a successful start at Everton after his impressive two-year spell at Southampton.

One of his sayings is "how you train is how you play", which has been his mantra since we played together for PSV Eindhoven and the Dutch national team in the 1980s.

I was always used to that approach too. It was rule number one under the best coaches I played for and the idea is that during the week you mimic the conditions you will play under on Saturday, so you get used to them.

I am sure Everton players have found out already what is expected of them - Koeman will not let them switch off during training games or think they can only give 70% effort. It has to be 100%.

He has increased the intensity of their sessions but there is more to his approach as a manager than just hard work and discipline.

Technically and tactically he is very strong too, and part of that is linked to how he was as a player.

Koeman always thinks ahead
_92157075_set-pieces.png

Under Koeman, Everton have conceded from a set-piece on average once every five matches. Under his predecessor Roberto Martinez, Everton conceded 14 goals from set-pieces in 2015-16, an average of one every 2.71 matches
Koeman was a brilliant defender but he was not very quick. If you are the slowest player on the pitch then you always have to be thinking what will happen next.

He needed to anticipate things all the time, but he did it so well he never made any slide tackles because he never had to, he always saw things coming. In fact, he saw slide tackles as a last resort.

So I know he always understood the game very, very well. He was always in the right place so he never got in any trouble.

That made him a very intelligent player and it is also why he is such an intelligent coach - he thinks ahead.

One example of that is when he took charge at Everton in the summer, he knew how they had conceded too many goals from set-pieces last season, so he has been trying to improve that, and it has worked.

Leadership is one of his strengths too
He is quiet, considered and thoughtful and his whole personality is like that - even away from football too - although he is not afraid of raising his voice when he has to with his players.

Those communication and man-management skills were obvious when we were players. I was captain of the Dutch team that won the 1988 European Championship, but we had a couple of players who took responsibility for their area of the team and he was one of them.

Koeman was captain of our defence and leadership was one of his strengths.

_92157366_netherlandswineuro88.jpg

Gullit and Koeman celebrate winning the 1988 European Championship with the Netherlands
In that era, we had a lot of strong personalities right through the Dutch team. People now say that we were always fighting but that is not true.

We could argue at times, though, because ultimately we always wanted to win and, if somebody did not do their job at the back then I needed Ronald to tell him that.

How Koeman tried to sting Barkley into action

Sometimes I watch Premier League games here and when people make mistakes they say nothing to each other - they just let it go and it is like happy families. I don't understand it.

If you want to win, you have to wake people up and I have seen Koeman do it already at Everton. With his treatment of Ross Barkley in the past few weeks, he has been trying to sting him a little.

That is also our way - the Dutch way - a little bit. He has high standards and he has been saying to Barkley that if you don't want to listen to me, then you have to learn the hard way.

By leaving him out, or taking him off, then Koeman is thinking that maybe he will learn.

He is trying to show Barkley that this is how you will end up if you don't do what is necessary for me, but for sure he will also have told the player that he is only doing it because he wants him to become better.

Koeman has done it to get a reaction and he got one against West Ham on Sunday, when Barkley scored his first league goal since the opening day of the season.

How far can Koeman take the Toffees?

It was not a great game, or a great performance by Everton but they took their chances against the Hammers and got the win.

They also got a clean sheet, and Tottenham are the only top-flight side to have conceded fewer goals in their first 10 games. That is something else Koeman will have worked on, although you would not say Everton are a defensive-minded team.

In terms of his style of play, I think he is very versatile. He played for so many great teams and had exposure to many different styles, with the ultimate being Johan Cruyff's Barcelona.

But of course he cannot play like Barca did when he is with Everton, and he understands that you have to adapt your style to the players you have got.

As a coach you learn that, although you have a philosophy, that doesn't mean you have a set tactical philosophy. That can be something totally different each week.

You also have to adapt to the league you are in. Koeman has experience across Europe but he also knows the Premier League now after his two seasons with Southampton.

He knows how to get results in England but he also knows to stay calm when they do not come. Before Sunday, Everton had suffered a little drop in form after their good start to the season but he believes in his players so there was no need for him to panic.

Koeman finished seventh and sixth in his two seasons at Southampton and it is going to be hard for him to improve on that with Everton, especially when you consider the other teams above them.

It will be a fantastic achievement if they do manage it and under Koeman I know they will fight hard, so they have a chance.

You're Cherry Picking a bit there - just the small bit that you agree with



I wasn't convinced on him at all.

Still, he's proving me wrong. I hope he continues.

No complaints at all so far - even the bits I find frustrating, particularly work rate and energy in the final third he's trying to address.

We're 10 games into the season, could we all stop being so dramatically conclusive?

You to a Tee there mate...Just admit that you don't expect Koeman to do anything...even if it is early days to judge If we will ever see proper joined up Footy.

If, as you suggest that Koeman will do ANYTHING to get the job done...and the job in question and maybe in your eyes too(?) is not to win Everton stuff, but rather to make Koeman look good for his next step up the ladder...with maybe Arsenal or Barca. I'm not sure that acting like some Gordon Lee/Moyes clone is the way to win friends and influence people from those Clubs.

If he'll really 'do anything' and Football really is a business (of course it is) but it's also part of the 'Entertainment Business'...might he not, after he's sorted the other underlying problems, might he not factor in some 'entertainment' & 'style'?...But he won't have to, because strangely enough - Not only the more you win, the better your 'style' appears to get ( try slagging Koeman off after a dozen or so pragmatic wins ) It actually does get better in real terms. I know, I've seen it...back when I was watching one team one week and one team the other and more than a few times since.
 
You to a Tee there mate...Just admit that you don't expect Koeman to do anything...even if it is early days to judge If we will ever see proper joined up Footy.

If, as you suggest that Koeman will do ANYTHING to get the job done...and the job in question and maybe in your eyes too(?) is not to win Everton stuff, but rather to make Koeman look good for his next step up the ladder...with maybe Arsenal or Barca. I'm not sure that acting like some Gordon Lee/Moyes clone is the way to win friends and influence people from those Clubs.

If he'll really 'do anything' and Football really is a business (of course it is) but it's also part of the 'Entertainment Business'...might he not, after he's sorted the other underlying problems, might he not factor in some 'entertainment' & 'style'?...But he won't have to, because strangely enough - Not only the more you win, the better your 'style' appears to get ( try slagging Koeman off after a dozen or so pragmatic wins ) It actually does get better in real terms. I know, I've seen it...back when I was watching one team one week and one team the other and more than a few times since.

Is this at me degsy? :oops:
 
As one of those who 'came in' at the end of that era - that home and away thing...I can tell you it had nothing to do with tribalism, more it was because:
a) there was 'K all else to do
b) You went with your mates who were both red and blue
c) If you were married it got you out of the wife's way and was an excuse to meet your mates for beer.




You're Cherry Picking a bit there - just the small bit that you agree with





You to a Tee there mate...Just admit that you don't expect Koeman to do anything...even if it is early days to judge If we will ever see proper joined up Footy.

If, as you suggest that Koeman will do ANYTHING to get the job done...and the job in question and maybe in your eyes too(?) is not to win Everton stuff, but rather to make Koeman look good for his next step up the ladder...with maybe Arsenal or Barca. I'm not sure that acting like some Gordon Lee/Moyes clone is the way to win friends and influence people from those Clubs.

If he'll really 'do anything' and Football really is a business (of course it is) but it's also part of the 'Entertainment Business'...might he not, after he's sorted the other underlying problems, might he not factor in some 'entertainment' & 'style'?...But he won't have to, because strangely enough - Not only the more you win, the better your 'style' appears to get ( try slagging Koeman off after a dozen or so pragmatic wins ) It actually does get better in real terms. I know, I've seen it...back when I was watching one team one week and one team the other and more than a few times since.
Think you meant to tag @davek in mate, not me. I just attached the story from the bbc ;)
 

Nah mate, I know quite a few Blues and Kopites who, as kids, would watch both teams and it wasn't unusual, but that's massively different to the "I've paid forty quid to watch this and expect to be entertained" attitude which is creeping into the game.

Wools did the same. People would support Bolton but would often catch a game at Deepdale or Ewood as well, which wasn't really because they wanted to be entertained, they just loved footie and the only way to watch a game was to go to one.

With the expense of watching Premier League football and the plethora of other things to spend your money on, I can understand the reasons why people feel the need to be entertained, but I can't remember leaving matches when I was in my teens hearing people complaining about not being entertained

I dunno how old you are, but I suspect you're a damned sight younger than and, as I have first hand experience of what I'm typing about we're going to gave to agree to disagree.

But you seem to be saying there that only when football clubs hiked their prices during a consumer boom and football came within the orbit of other entertainment industries that entertainment and football were introduced to each other!

Go back to your own examples there. It makes no sense to me that people attending a game without having a connection to a football club would not see that as a means of entertainment for a Saturday afternoon. They're not fans of the team they watch, so what sort of motive do they have other than to watch people do something with a ball that they cant see down the local park from a pub team for zip?

I see what you're saying about the Sky sport / PL era and the circus surrounding it, but I think you have to separate out the froth of that from the essence of the game - which is to provide a spectacle for the masses. All Murdoch etc have done is to tap into that and tweak it and commodified the game a lot more successfully on the back of that.
 
The kopites watched one of the most boring sides in the history of football win everything before them in the days of the backpass.

They're still gutted about that to this day. Weeping that they didn't win with more style.

Oh wait.
Oh they were an ugly team that Liverpool 70s/80s one. They somehow get a reputation of pass and move the Liverpool groove etc. But the reality was they were as ugly as sin: as you say, killing games with back passes; thugs all over the pitch who mowed down opposition flair players. The one player they had who was a genius of sorts was Terry McDermott. He was a lone flower growing in a cow field full of dung.

In my experience they've had two flirtations with playing some stylish football: a brief period under Roy Evans when Fowler was scoring for fun and they were knocking it about a bit (it shocked me, I'd always seen them as barbarians up to that point), and now under Klopp, who has them playing some great stuff.
 
Love this. Like a textbook example of confirmation bias. Remembers Mirallas sent off and the attacking football. But only a tiny nod to "yes the collapse happened", which was the most important bit of the game.

I remember as soon as Lukaku missed the penalty everyone knew we were in trouble - at 2-0 up. As soon as West Ham got the first, most knew we'd go on to lose. When the collapse did happen it was no surprise.

There was the awful Martinez sub. And the total lack of game management that summed up his tenure.

This season we had a ropey first 20 mins (although WH didn't have many clear chances). We finished the half the better
(Would have led but for a great save to deny Ross). Second half, much better, scored as we were increasing pressure. A dodgy 15 mins after we scored when we looked a bit stand-offish. Then finished really strongly, were denied a clear penalty, and Rom a bit unlucky with a volley straight at the keeper at the end of a great move.

Can't believe anyone would use a comparison of those 2 games as anything other than a show of our improvement.
...oh look, you seem to have done exactly what you accuse me of: "a tiny nod" to the most important incident of the game - that tit getting sent off and leaving us undermanned for an hour.

Even so we played a better WHU than that toothless one yesterday and played them off the park until Captain Fantastic couldn't organise the defence of a 2 goal lead. If we';d had Williams instead of the church mouse that day we'd have run out winners. Thank God he's dropped and on the way out.
 

...oh look, you seem to have done exactly what you accuse me of: "a tiny nod" to the most important incident of the game - that tit getting sent off and leaving us undermanned for an hour.

Even so we played a better WHU than that toothless one yesterday and played them off the park until Captain Fantastic couldn't organise the defence of a 2 goal lead. If we';d had Williams instead of the church mouse that day we'd have run out winners. Thank God he's dropped and on the way out.

Can't believe Jagielka brought Oumar Niasse on for our best player that day, what a tool
 
I don't get this debate.

Surely we all want to be "entertained" whilst winning but it is winning first for me and winning by any and all means.

There is an expectation of entertainment yes, but football is generally a bit an anomaly in that respect - you would think that all professional footballers would be capable of producing stuff that can't be seen down the park - but this is plainly not the case and is one of the absurdities of the game.

It is ridiculous even in the Premier League that there is still a general distinction between creative/flair players and more or less, runners, and/or hardmen - those who have very little ability with a football at all but can just be relied upon for effort - with their five figure weekly salaries. I don't dislike that type of player in fact they tend to become folk heroes more often that not - I think part of the reason for the global appeal of the PL is due to its pace and physicality - attributes that teams can incorporate to go towards levelling the playing field to an extent with more illustrious opponents.

Look at Big Joe's Dogs of War - you might well scoff at the entertainment value of that side or would you? Not pretty on the eye but very effective - for me its entertaining when we win, even though most of the time for a purist we could do far better. That team, limited as it was, and cup win will stand out for me in terms of entertainment value unless and until the next winning Everton side comes along.

Winning matches is very entertaining indeed.
 
It's ridiculous that the day after we win a game there's an argument about us not doing it with enough 'style'. We were even playing nice stuff at times yesterday - that one touch move that resulted in Adrian saving a first time shot from Lukaku near the end would have been a gorgeous goal. But no lets fawn over how Liverpool play for some reason.
 
I don't get this debate.

Surely we all want to be "entertained" whilst winning but it is winning first for me and winning by any and all means.

There is an expectation of entertainment yes, but football is generally a bit an anomaly in that respect - you would think that all professional footballers would be capable of producing stuff that can't be seen down the park - but this is plainly not the case and is one of the absurdities of the game.

It is ridiculous even in the Premier League that there is still a general distinction between creative/flair players and more or less, runners, and/or hardmen - those who have very little ability with a football at all but can just be relied upon for effort - with their five figure weekly salaries. I don't dislike that type of player in fact they tend to become folk heroes more often that not - I think part of the reason for the global appeal of the PL is due to its pace and physicality - attributes that teams can incorporate to go towards levelling the playing field to an extent with more illustrious opponents.

Look at Big Joe's Dogs of War - you might well scoff at the entertainment value of that side or would you? Not pretty on the eye but very effective - for me its entertaining when we win, even though most of the time for a purist we could do far better. That team, limited as it was, and cup win will stand out for me in terms of entertainment value unless and until the next winning Everton side comes along.

Winning matches is very entertaining indeed.

It's a case of nostalgia and yearning for the for the olden days, and it happens across every medium with every generation. No music today is as good as it used to be, no film is as quality as the classics, and winning football isn't as entertaining as it was when i was a lad.

It's rose tinted glasses that conveniently forget the drub that was mixed in with the old greats. 25 years from now someone will be on this forum crying for the days of Lukaku and Barkley linking up, even though today some may cry mediocrity.
 

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