Ronald Koeman discussion

[Papa Shango]

Martinez managed 5 home wins all of last season and Koeman already has 3 home wins this season.

Martinez aint our problem any more.

The players at the club who were part of that record still are which concerns me.

Still, you cant just get rid of everybody overnight I suppose.

 

[bignev23]

Ooh the irony of boring the tits off everyone prattling on day in day out about entertainment. If football was an entertainment business there would be tricks flicks keep ups and Rabonas all over the show, there aren't and its frowned upon by professionals to take the micky like that. Imagine going the match and being more bothered about being entertained than watching a decent game of togger, how do you even know when to celebrate ?? are there any set rules to this entertainment that's missing ?? when do you know if your entertained ??

 

[davek]

How does that work? Quite easily. Lukaku miss was the turning point. however can't blame him for conceding 3 goals in 15 minutes. Also I wouldn't blame mirallas who wasn't on the pitch (despite him obviously being an idiot for getting sent off), as unlikely he'd have done much defending either. I'd rather look at the players who were on the pitch and why they were unable to see the game out.

As I said, it was down to poor subs (looked to give new forward game-time, when an extra midfielder / defender was the right call), and a badly drilled team who collapsed as soon as they came under any pressure as they weren't coached to defend properly.

This was clearly a hallmark of a Martinez team - hence it happening regularly under him, and hence was the first thing Koeman looked to put right.

So all those players on the pitch who could influence the game positively but did the opposite at crucial points are not primarily to blame; the manager is to blame because it'd happened before against Leicester, Bournemouth and Stoke...games that these players were involved in also?

They lost or drew games they should have won because they weren't as confident and mentally tough as their manager. That's where RMs failure was for me. He entrusted his players to act calmly and as the well paid professionals they were/are. That was his failure for me. He failed to get shut of the players he inherited off Moyes...something Koeman will now have to do (in fact he did that from day one by getting shut of Osman and Hibbert asap). Martinez should have seen a mile off that you cant completely trust players you dont sign yourself.

 

[mkrudden]

So all those players on the pitch who could influence the game positively but did the opposite at crucial points are not primarily to blame; the manager is to blame because it'd happened before against Leicester, Bournemouth and Stoke...games that these players were involved in also?

They lost or drew games they should have won because they weren't as confident and mentally tough as their manager. That's where RMs failure was for me. He entrusted his players to act calmly and as the well paid professionals they were/are. That was his failure for me. He failed to get shut of the players he inherited off Moyes...something Koeman will now have to do (in fact he did that from day one by getting shut of Osman and Hibbert asap). Martinez should have seen a mile off that you cant completely trust players you dont sign yourself.

As a big Martinez fan myself, at times I hope the rumours are true Dave and you are just the King of Popcorning.

 

[davek]

As a big Martinez fan myself, at times I hope the rumours are true Dave and you are just the King of Popcorning.

Not popcorning mate.

 

[bcblue1878]

He wasnt at fault for that loss though. He wasnt playing in a defence that shipped 3 goals, he wasnt the one who missed a pen and he wasn't the one who got sent off.

The ultimate responsibility lies with the manager, so of course he was responsible! Responsible for the team team he sends out, the tactics, the lack of defensive organisation, the substitutions etc etc - and ultimately it cost him his job! Yup Rom should have scored that penalty, and when he missed there was a collective groan and everyone in the ground sensed what was coming next! Give me yesterday's scenario every time 2-0 up, no sense of panic and hey ho happy days for most of us!

 

[Amw79]

So all those players on the pitch who could influence the game positively but did the opposite at crucial points are not primarily to blame; the manager is to blame because it'd happened before against Leicester, Bournemouth and Stoke...games that these players were involved in also?

They lost or drew games they should have won because they weren't as confident and mentally tough as their manager. That's where RMs failure was for me. He entrusted his players to act calmly and as the well paid professionals they were/are. That was his failure for me. He failed to get shut of the players he inherited off Moyes...something Koeman will now have to do (in fact he did that from day one by getting shut of Osman and Hibbert asap). Martinez should have seen a mile off that you cant completely trust players you dont sign yourself.

Ha ha. There are no words for that bit in bold. It's beyond self-deception. Or top rate trolling. One or the other.

RMs failure was an inability to get a team to defend. Koeman is rectifying this.

 

[mkrudden]

Not popcorning mate.

You know I think you're a good lad so i'm not bashing you here...
To say that Martinez wasn't to blame for the fragility of our side is outlandish at best imo.
I loved RM, mainly for the reasons you did - our team wanted to be ON the ball and take the game TO the opposition. The guff of the 11 years previous was a thing of the past and we were playing fantastic football in his first season.

The evidence against him though, unfortunately, is pretty damning.

We couldn't defend crosses (Osman has said we stopped practicing set-pieces in this auto-biography)
We lacked leaders
We lacked a quality goalkeeper
We lacked the foresight to know Stones would need a bedding in period rather than being relied on to be a consistent performer
We lacked the ability to hold up ball high up the pitch, mainly due to an over-reliance on Pienaar and Osman in their late years

All of this is his fault.

Probably though, the best example of his deficiencies was HIS mental weakness which was mirrored by his team.

When under the cosh and results going against us, he abandoned the only thing we were good at - attacking. He binned off Deulofeu, brought in Lennon (just one of the changes) and tried to make us more compact and disciplined. Half way through the season. Without the players to do it.

Roberto had his style of play and kind of changed that towards the end of his career at Everton. He changed the whole style of the team and things weren’t working out at that time, so you could say it wasn’t the best decision

- John Stones

I personally lost alot of respect for Stones after his comments re: Martinez as RM took alot of pressure off JS when he was d****** about rather than clearing his lines. BUT what's clear is that Martinez wasn't strong enough to AT LEAST carry on with what he believed in. He went for safety first, a style of play he nor our squad was geared for.

It's no surprise we were mentally weak with someone in charge who isn't brave enough to stick to his principles. He might have been sacked anyway, but at least on his terms.

He deserved the sack. 100%

 

[Famous_Seamus]

So all those players on the pitch who could influence the game positively but did the opposite at crucial points are not primarily to blame; the manager is to blame because it'd happened before against Leicester, Bournemouth and Stoke...games that these players were involved in also?

They lost or drew games they should have won because they weren't as confident and mentally tough as their manager. That's where RMs failure was for me. He entrusted his players to act calmly and as the well paid professionals they were/are. That was his failure for me. He failed to get shut of the players he inherited off Moyes...something Koeman will now have to do (in fact he did that from day one by getting shut of Osman and Hibbert asap). Martinez should have seen a mile off that you cant completely trust players you dont sign yourself.

It was Martinez's responsibility to put players on the pitch that are capable of the job, just the same as Koeman. Martinez had 3 years to make the team to his liking, if the Moyes players were the real problem he only has himself to blame for keeping them here.

I agree the ultimately its up to the players to actually perform, the difference was when they didn't perform for RM he ran them right back out, whereas 10 games in Koeman has already dropped McCarthy, Ross and Jags and it's put players on notice.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

So all those players on the pitch who could influence the game positively but did the opposite at crucial points are not primarily to blame; the manager is to blame because it'd happened before against Leicester, Bournemouth and Stoke...games that these players were involved in also?

They lost or drew games they should have won because they weren't as confident and mentally tough as their manager. That's where RMs failure was for me. He entrusted his players to act calmly and as the well paid professionals they were/are. That was his failure for me. He failed to get shut of the players he inherited off Moyes...something Koeman will now have to do (in fact he did that from day one by getting shut of Osman and Hibbert asap). Martinez should have seen a mile off that you cant completely trust players you dont sign yourself.

Like he trusted Alcarez ?

 

[Papa Shango]

The ultimate responsibility lies with the manager, so of course he was responsible! Responsible for the team team he sends out, the tactics, the lack of defensive organisation, the substitutions etc etc - and ultimately it cost him his job! Yup Rom should have scored that penalty, and when he missed there was a collective groan and everyone in the ground sensed what was coming next! Give me yesterday's scenario every time 2-0 up, no sense of panic and hey ho happy days for most of us!

I meant Niasse not Martinez.

Of course he is responsible but that doesnt mean others are not blameless like the players who have let us down for many a year now when a bit of pressure is put on us.

 

[davek]

You know I think you're a good lad so i'm not bashing you here...
To say that Martinez wasn't to blame for the fragility of our side is outlandish at best imo.
I loved RM, mainly for the reasons you did - our team wanted to be ON the ball and take the game TO the opposition. The guff of the 11 years previous was a thing of the past and we were playing fantastic football in his first season.

The evidence against him though, unfortunately, is pretty damning.

We couldn't defend crosses (Osman has said we stopped practicing set-pieces in this auto-biography)
We lacked leaders
We lacked a quality goalkeeper
We lacked the foresight to know Stones would need a bedding in period rather than being relied on to be a consistent performer
We lacked the ability to hold up ball high up the pitch, mainly due to an over-reliance on Pienaar and Osman in their late years

All of this is his fault.

Probably though, the best example of his deficiencies was HIS mental weakness which was mirrored by his team.

When under the cosh and results going against us, he abandoned the only thing we were good at - attacking. He binned off Deulofeu, brought in Lennon (just one of the changes) and tried to make us more compact and disciplined. Half way through the season. Without the players to do it.

- John Stones

I personally lost alot of respect for Stones after his comments re: Martinez as RM took alot of pressure off JS when he was d****** about rather than clearing his lines. BUT what's clear is that Martinez wasn't strong enough to AT LEAST carry on with what he believed in. He went for safety first, a style of play he nor our squad was geared for.

It's no surprise we were mentally weak with someone in charge who isn't brave enough to stick to his principles. He might have been sacked anyway, but at least on his terms.

He deserved the sack. 100%

I didn't see the last few months that way mate. He had injuries to contend with a lot of the third season and he patched up a defence that was badly affected. And Deulofeu was never a nailed on starter at any time in his three seasons here. I wouldn't see Lennon's signing as anything but positive. He turns defence into attack a lot better than Deulofeu and that's why he was brought in. RM retained that core belief in controlling the ball and the game and only took out Stones for the lad's own good in the end.

This notion that he didn't do that is alien to me. Wasn't Martinez hung drawn and quartered because he was said to be too stubborn to move away from core principles?

As for where we lacked squad wise: I agree with you, they were positions that needed new players in...which is why I've said earlier that this was Martinez's big failure: his reluctance to have a clean sweep of the players he inherited off Moyes...something he should have done when his stock was sky high at the end of his first season here.

I'll always give Martinez (or any other manager) credit for trying to play the right way. They have the instincts I like to see. Go for broke, take all three points. If it doesn't work out then you might lose and you take that...and you might even lose your job. And that is something I'm sure Martinez factored in and accepted.

 

[davek]

It was Martinez's responsibility to put players on the pitch that are capable of the job, just the same as Koeman. Martinez had 3 years to make the team to his liking, if the Moyes players were the real problem he only has himself to blame for keeping them here.

I agree the ultimately its up to the players to actually perform, the difference was when they didn't perform for RM he ran them right back out, whereas 10 games in Koeman has already dropped McCarthy, Ross and Jags and it's put players on notice.

Yes. Ultimately it was his can to carry.

All told on martinez: he came here and tried to get us playing great football and winning football. It worked for a season and a few patches of games in the following two. It was something ultimately though that he couldn't get the players and support to keep buying into. He lost his job. End of.

...but at least he wasn't a turd and at least tried to play football the right way. I'll always take an idealist over a pragmatist.

 

[davek]

Ha ha. There are no words for that bit in bold. It's beyond self-deception. Or top rate trolling. One or the other.

RMs failure was an inability to get a team to defend. Koeman is rectifying this.

I dont want him to get a team to defend, I want him to get a back four to defend and leave the rest to attack. If he does that then job done. Right now that back four are as bad as ever.

 

[IlliniToffee]

so calling players "fruitcakes" is cool around here now? any other slurs OK?