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2024/25 Sean Dyche - Sacked

From a saints board...

I came across that clip of Ancelotti the other day basically saying he didn’t have the defenders to play through the lines so why do it?

At the time he had a back 4 of Digne/Godfrey Mina Keane Coleman/Holgate

He instead said that if he can utilise Pickford’s kicking to go long to Calvert Lewin and build from there why wouldn’t he if it worked better?

We’ve now got a much worse back 4 technically in possession with Mykolenko and Tarkowski worse on the ball than Mina Digne. We’ve probably got a worse midfield as well as Allan Gomes James could handle a ball better than Gueye Mangala or wherever else we play in there.

So if one of the greatest managers of all time is saying he doesn’t have the players to play progressive football through the lines, why are we battering Sean Dyche to do it with even worse players?
 
If we're content forever being a club that's just happy they stayed up, he's great.

I, for one, do not watch football in the hope we 'just stay up'.

Where's the enjoyment in that? May as well go watch darts instead.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you mate but that also ignores the context.

Me and my missus bought our house almost 2 years ago but can't afford to do everything we want to do in here, and likely won't be able to for many, many years and have made a few compromises here and there in the meantime. But we'll keep working towards it and that.

Similarly, the club is in limbo until we get new owners and are benefitting from the increased revenue of BMD. If the club is still content to keep us in Dyche purgatory once all that has happened then your point will carry a lot more weight, but right now we are where we are. As much as people are probably sick of hearing it, mind.
 
I don’t need to put them anywhere. They put themselves there.

It’s just people on here pretending that them and Fulham are top 7 teams.

I didn't put Fulham as "top 7" apart from Brighton purely based on current form.

But if we're basing on where they finished last season, then it still backs up where we are points wise compared to last season.
 
You can play possession based football in the championship, in fact, it's probably good to do so to get promoted. Brentford did this in the championship, and then, when promoted, Thomas Frank recognised that his job was to make Brentford competitive, so he swapped to a more direct style of play.

Kompany, used Burnley as a tool to promote a philosophy, Russell Martin doing similar at Southampton. They will not part from their philosophy, and it has and may get their teams relegated. However, it is good for their individual manager profiles and they may get 'bigger' jobs off of it, ie. Kompany to Bayern.

Yeah, as silly at is, Kompany had a sounding name as a player, what seems to help and some clubs seem to choose the name over ability, Vieira, Henry or Pirlo are good examples.
 
No, not opinions on Dyche directly, opinions on priorities for the club itself. In this instance a survive at all costs approach to staying in the premier league. In my view, that is the main pro-Dyche position, that he somehow guarantees PL survival and so anything else that comes along with that is acceptable. I think that is short-sighted and the longer that you circle the drain the more likely you are to go down it. There are countless examples of clubs that started on a steady decline, then hovered just above relegation for several seasons and the vast majority of those clubs end up relegated, including those managed by guaranteed PL survivor Sean Dyche.

Well, the immediate priority when Dyche come in 1 year, 8 months, and 29 days ago was Premier League survival.

Remember?

That's my point. Dyche = relegation. No Dyche = probably relegation but maybe not.

What has changed since then to alter that immediate objective?

In my view - not a lot. We've not invested in the squad. We have an ownership who is more absent now than he was then.

You talk about circling the drain - we've been doing that for a long time.

We've gone from;

22/23 - 36 points
23/24 - 40 points
24/25 - 48 points

... and after 9 games of this season, we have more points than last.

So at least there's been progress there.

If we continue to not invest in the squad, then yes - relegation seems inevitable.

You say you never wanted Dyche.

Nobody wanted Dyche.

But some of us recognise he's the pragmatist we needed at the time. This was you, the day before we hired Dyche;

Not Dyche's fault, he's not helping, but not his fault. He is a symptom, Kenwright and Moshiri are the disease. We need a big dose of penicillin.

... You favoured taking a risk even if it meant relegation.
... I favoured, and still do, reducing that risk. All about getting to Bramley Moore, under new owners as a Premier League team.

A few years back I'd have been at the front of the queue calling for Dyche to be sacked. I was in the minority calling for us to sack Koeman, then Lampard and go all out for Emery.

But now we have to take our medicine from that disease your referred to and wait.
 

I came across that clip of Ancelotti the other day basically saying he didn’t have the defenders to play through the lines so why do it?

At the time he had a back 4 of Digne/Godfrey Mina Keane Coleman/Holgate

He instead said that if he can utilise Pickford’s kicking to go long to Calvert Lewin and build from there why wouldn’t he if it worked better?

We’ve now got a much worse back 4 technically in possession with Mykolenko and Tarkowski worse on the ball than Mina Digne. We’ve probably got a worse midfield as well as Allan Gomes James could handle a ball better than Gueye Mangala or wherever else we play in there.

So if one of the greatest managers of all time is saying he doesn’t have the players to play progressive football through the lines, why are we battering Sean Dyche to do it with even worse players?

I actually think our midfield is fine mate, in terms of the deep lying players. I think, especially with Garner, Tim, Gueye, and for now Mangala that these players can get on the ball and look to start things, but then the out ball is quite often the full backs. And lets be honest, ours aren't comfortable taking the ball in tight spaces and effortlessly finding a blue shirt, and haven't been for quite a while now other than Digne. This is one of the biggest reasons we've struggled against a press for a good while now.
 
I actually think our midfield is fine mate, in terms of the deep lying players. I think, especially with Garner, Tim, Gueye, and for now Mangala that these players can get on the ball and look to start things, but then the out ball is quite often the full backs. And lets be honest, ours aren't comfortable taking the ball in tight spaces and effortlessly finding a blue shirt. This is one of the biggest reasons we've struggled against a press a for a good while now.

To play good progressive football you need all players comfortable on the ball otherwise it breaks down. If all player aren’t then all that happens is the opposite team squeezes and leaves the player who can’t handle the ball in possession and wait for the mistake.

I’ve seen countless good spells of Everton possession under numerous managers go out to Coleman who ends up shanking it down the line or botching the pass infield, or Gueye plays a suicide ball across midfield that gets intercepted.

If we want to play that way then we need to take Keane Coleman Gueye Doucoure and probably Calvert Lewin out the line up and replace them with technical players. We then need to ensure that all the players are also willing to work as hard off the ball as Doucoure Gueye and DCL do.

When you have all 11 comfortable on the ball then the opposition struggle to effectively press and gaps open up or they recognise there’s no point pressing and they drop off meaning you have more possession and more of the ball which is the position City are in now.

Playing progressive football is primarily a product of player quality, it’s not achieved by just ‘wanting’ to do it or ‘having a go’ or ‘being positive’. Football games are not just won solely on desire, you can do it in short bursts but dominance in a match and in possession is largely dictated by player quality, always has been.

Quite simply we do not have enough tactical solutions to dominate territory in football games. We don’t have the pace in defence to play a high line, we don’t have the pace in attack to play on the counter, we don’t have the pace in midfield to close gaps to allow us to play different formations.

We have to sit the defence deep, we can’t leave the front line high as the midfield become stretched so the team has to stay compact. We don’t have the pace to break out of this quickly so we have to hold up slowly, we then don’t have the quality on the ball to build up slowly.

Every tactical option we look at we don’t have the solution to use it in the squad more often than not. We can’t give players more pace, or much better natural technique.

It’s just not as simple as hectoring the manager to ‘go for it’ more like it’s a conscious choice rather than a result of the reality of the players you have. Some people just don’t seem to understand this. Increase the tactical options available to the manager through increasing squad quality and lo and behold you might get your plan B and C in games, you might get your proactive substitutions, you might get a higher percentage of possession and you might get your progressive football.

Asking any manager to get Keane Tarkowski Coleman Gueye Doucoure DCL Beto to play progressive football is just suicide. We need a squad of players who can all handle the football to a certain standard before that is a viable tactical option.
 
Well, the immediate priority when Dyche come in 1 year, 8 months, and 29 days ago was Premier League survival.

Remember?



What has changed since then to alter that immediate objective?

In my view - not a lot. We've not invested in the squad. We have an ownership who is more absent now than he was then.

You talk about circling the drain - we've been doing that for a long time.

We've gone from;

22/23 - 36 points
23/24 - 40 points
24/25 - 48 points

... and after 9 games of this season, we have more points than last.

So at least there's been progress there.

If we continue to not invest in the squad, then yes - relegation seems inevitable.

You say you never wanted Dyche.

Nobody wanted Dyche.

But some of us recognise he's the pragmatist we needed at the time. This was you, the day before we hired Dyche;



... You favoured taking a risk even if it meant relegation.
... I favoured, and still do, reducing that risk. All about getting to Bramley Moore, under new owners as a Premier League team.

A few years back I'd have been at the front of the queue calling for Dyche to be sacked. I was in the minority calling for us to sack Koeman, then Lampard and go all out for Emery.

But now we have to take our medicine from that disease your referred to and wait.
I think taking isolated quotes is not the most honest way to make an argument, and I notice that you have taken to doing that quite a lot lately. If you look at my quotes in the context of all of my posts none of the ones that you have selected are the most representative of my overall opinions, but ho hum.

However, the question, I suppose, is when you stop taking that medicine you viewed as essential. My view is that we should have stopped taking it last summer at the latest, you seem to view this coming summer as the right moment, and others think further in the future is justified.

Of course, nobody knows which option is the right one and it also depends on who replaces Dyche in any case. Make the right choice and some, most likely including me, would argue it could have been done earlier and we could have reaped the benefits earlier. Make the wrong choice and the pro-Dyche lobby (and it is most definitely a lobby at this point) will use it as evidence of how valuable Dyche was. I told you so's in either direction won't have any real value, of course, because, in reality, the next manager of this club will tell us little about Dyche's tenure as the conditions at the club will hopefully be very different.

What's disheartening about the last few years, and this is true in broader society as well as on this forum, is that disagreement isn't tolerated and arguments end up on a never ending death loop with ever hardening views. I'm guilty of that too, before you grab up a few more quotes, but really I think it's fine that you rate the job Dyche has done higher than I do. At the end of the day, neither of us have any meaningful impact on the situation anyway, no matter what Damo and Dave say.
 
To play good progressive football you need all players comfortable on the ball otherwise it breaks down. If all player aren’t then all that happens is the opposite team squeezes and leaves the player who can’t handle the ball in possession and wait for the mistake.

I’ve seen countless good spells of Everton possession under numerous managers go out to Coleman who ends up shanking it down the line or botching the pass infield, or Gueye plays a suicide ball across midfield that gets intercepted.

If we want to play that way then we need to take Keane Coleman Gueye Doucoure and probably Calvert Lewin out the line up and replace them with technical players. We then need to ensure that all the players are also willing to work as hard off the ball as Doucoure Gueye and DCL do.

When you have all 11 comfortable on the ball then the opposition struggle to effectively press and gaps open up or they recognise there’s no point pressing and they drop off meaning you have more possession and more of the ball which is the position City are in now.

Playing progressive football is primarily a product of player quality, it’s not achieved by just ‘wanting’ to do it or ‘having a go’ or ‘being positive’. Football games are not just won solely on desire, you can do it in short bursts but dominance in a match and in possession is largely dictated by player quality, always has been.

Quite simply we do not have enough tactical solutions to dominate territory in football games. We don’t have the pace in defence to play a high line, we don’t have the pace in attack to play on the counter, we don’t have the pace in midfield to close gaps to allow us to play different formations.

We have to sit the defence deep, we can’t leave the front line high as the midfield become stretched so the team has to stay compact. We don’t have the pace to break out of this quickly so we have to hold up slowly, we then don’t have the quality on the ball to build up slowly.

Every tactical option we look at we don’t have the solution to use it in the squad more often than not. We can’t give players more pace, or much better natural technique.

It’s just not as simple as hectoring the manager to ‘go for it’ more like it’s a conscious choice rather than a result of the reality of the players you have. Some people just don’t seem to understand this. Increase the tactical options available to the manager through increasing squad quality and lo and behold you might get your plan B and C in games, you might get your proactive substitutions, you might get a higher percentage of possession and you might get your progressive football.

Asking any manager to get Keane Tarkowski Coleman Gueye Doucoure DCL Beto to play progressive football is just suicide. We need a squad of players who can all handle the football to a certain standard before that is a viable tactical option.

Yeah I agree entirely. Although we'll have to agree to disagree over Gueye. He's playing absolutely fine and there's not been any consistent sloppiness from him.

I was mainly just thinking about why we have struggled against a press a lot over the course of a good few years now, and for me it starts with the full backs.
 

From a saints board...
So, its Southampton who still
Have players from league one in the team, think it matters not probably what style they play, they will go down, but I have no doubt some of their fans enjoyed football last season.

You can keep booting it long and setting up defensively like Burnley just to survive for 7/8 yrs in the prem, but as has shown the game has moved on in just 10yrs and eventually Burnley went playing that way. Burnley would become a yo-yo side for probably another 10yrs playing the same way, until the championship got better, which it will.

Or you can try and build something over a long period, with talented footballers and coaches for a club like Southampton it could take a while. But if i supported a club of that size its what I would want to see.

Will be interesting to see how dyche gets on over the next 10yrs playing this way at smaller clubs
 
So, its Southampton who still
Have players from league one in the team, think it matters not probably what style they play, they will go down, but I have no doubt some of their fans enjoyed football last season.

You can keep booting it long and setting up defensively like Burnley just to survive for 7/8 yrs in the prem, but as has shown the game has moved on in just 10yrs and eventually Burnley went playing that way. Burnley would become a yo-yo side for probably another 10yrs playing the same way, until the championship got better, which it will.

Or you can try and build something over a long period, with talented footballers and coaches for a club like Southampton it could take a while. But if i supported a club of that size its what I would want to see.

Will be interesting to see how dyche gets on over the next 10yrs playing this way at smaller clubs

If you supported Southampton you'd be happy with six goals and 1 point after the clocks had gone back? I'd personally be crying out for a Dyche if I was them, but each to their own.
 
Oh and @blueboy72 Saints haven't been in league one since the 2010/11 season btw so not sure what players are still knocking around from them days. Can't be many, surely?, and since the 2012/13 season, they've only spent one season outside of the Premier League.
 
Play Beto. The way we play means no wingbacks putting crosses in, or beating full backs. So dcl has no service. Play Lindstrom in a preferred role in centre…we need creativity
 

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