2023/24 Sean Dyche

[NathDogg]

35 years ago; but some of us still remember.

Bill Kenwright has managed to convince evertonians that staying in this league is acceptable, and many buy it

The standards and expectations of most Evertonians are in the sewer thanks to Chairman Bill, as demonstrated by the fans reaction to the 27years campaign, and the inaction and acceptance of the status quo ever since.

He’s also done worse than tell them it’s acceptable - it’s our target these days, and most are fine with that.

 

[Saint Domingo]

How do you propose we “challenge for the top” though? Like seriously, without just vaguely alluding to it? Because one of these teams is significantly closer than the other to challenging for the top currently.

Give a manager and DOF time to sort out the problems without expecting an astronomical jump up the table.

If Dyche and Thelwell can have a few seasons to clear out players on high wages who didn’t want to be here, players who aren’t good enough, players with the wrong attitude etc. and then bring in players who do want to be here and are good enough to play PL football at decent prices then that is part one of the job done. We’ll be safely in the league, FFP troubles behind us, a more attractive proposition to players and manager and financial institutions. We’ll then also be in a new stadium. It also gives Thelwell time to solve the long term problems such as the injury prevention and rehabilitation at the club, academy production, and the obvious recruitment errors of the past.

Step 2 is then allowing Dyche to hit his ceiling, let him take it as far as he can. At that point we’re a solid mid table team, more financial power, and we don’t have a reputation for firing managers every month. At that point we could go for a new manager who would have a platform to challenge for europe potentially.

If we then challenge for Europe and gain entry we have a better base for staying in European competitions regularly as Moyes did with us. From there you gain revenue, attract better players, have a chance at trophies.

Doing what Brighton are doing only benefits your balance sheet as ultimately every single player and manager at that club know they are not there long term and ultimately have eyes on their next destination. That’s the culture they’ve ingrained now as well.

 

[MikeH72]

Give a manager and DOF time to sort out the problems without expecting an astronomical jump up the table.

If Dyche and Thelwell can have a few seasons to clear out players on high wages who didn’t want to be here, players who aren’t good enough, players with the wrong attitude etc. and then bring in players who do want to be here and are good enough to play PL football at decent prices then that is part one of the job done. We’ll be safely in the league, FFP troubles behind us, a more attractive proposition to players and manager and financial institutions. We’ll then also be in a new stadium. It also gives Thelwell time to solve the long term problems such as the injury prevention and rehabilitation at the club, academy production, and the obvious recruitment errors of the past.

Step 2 is then allowing Dyche to hit his ceiling, let him take it as far as he can. At that point we’re a solid mid table team, more financial power, and we don’t have a reputation for firing managers every month. At that point we could go for a new manager who would have a platform to challenge for europe potentially.

If we then challenge for Europe and gain entry we have a better base for staying in European competitions regularly as Moyes did with us. From there you gain revenue, attract better players, have a chance at trophies.

Doing what Brighton are doing only benefits your balance sheet as ultimately every single player and manager at that club know they are not there long term and ultimately have eyes on their next destination. That’s the culture they’ve ingrained now as well.

Right. Assuming every single thing goes perfectly which is how you’re clearly expecting it to go, that sounds reasonable. Here’s the thing - what if things don’t go swimmingly and we end up relegated to the Championship? What’s the plan from that point on? Because I’m not as confident as you that keeping Dyche in a job will result in us becoming a solid mid table side, he had years at Burnley and that wasn’t the end result.

“Success” isn’t even on the menu for me, it’s not something I’ve thought for a single second about. Right now our only hope of actually surviving as a football club is to cling on by the skin of our teeth to Premier League survival until the time comes when we’re sold. Is Dyche our best bet for that? From what I’ve observed, no.

 

[Sheedy's right knee.]

The standards and expectations of most Evertonians are in the sewer thanks to Chairman Bill, as demonstrated by the fans reaction to the 27years campaign, and the inaction and acceptance of the status quo ever since.

He’s also done worse than tell them it’s acceptable - it’s our target these days, and most are fine with that.

I agree with everything you have said here but I think it’s been like a slow drip developing into a leak. Our expectations have dropped year upon year after bad decision after bad decision. I still think the Koeman/Allardyce axis did untold damage. It would have been nice to clear the decks after that but we couldn’t have a fire sale because of players on inflated contracts so managers and DOFs are still feeling the far reaching effects of that unmitigated disaster. Then Benitez comes in and puts us back another couple of years like a bull in a China shop and here is where we are at. I would love to say we should be at top table but the reality at the moment is starkly different and this is reflected in us match going supporters. It’s a tough one mate.

 

[Dwight K Schrute]

Because a lot of people on this forum live in a delusional world where the only barrier to our success is the hiring of the right young hipster manager who will somehow take a group of bottom half players and have them playing top teams off the park home and away on a consistent basis making light of the gaping disparity in resources in a way that no other manager in PL history has done on a consistent basis.

To add to this we’ll get a director of football who will just ignore Everton’s financial regulations position and stock the team with four top quality strikers who are proven scorers of double figures in the PL (just in case the first three get injured of course which should be expected and planned for by the manager and the DOF because it happens everywhere apparently). Naturally the other three top strikers are happy to join a bottom half team to sit on the bench behind the first choice. This principle applies for all positions naturally and we are expected to maintain this top level form even if a majority of our best players are injured.

We’re expected to dominate any PL team who is not in the top 6, even on their own patch, even if we have significant injuries, by virtue of the fact our name is Everton and everyone else is crap. When it comes to the top 6 we’re also expected to beat them away as well despite the significant difference in quality between the teams. If anyone beats us at home regardless of the circumstances it’s an absolute disgrace and a sackable offence.

We have to play attacking football with all moves coming through the fullbacks, but both fullbacks must also be rock solid defensively, the keeper should be great at distribution and shot stopping but if he’s called Pickford this doesn’t count and any other keeper would be preferable regardless of their ability. The strikers and attacking players should be absolutely top quality and linked with top clubs but obviously chose Everton turning down CL football and higher wages.

All our scouting should focus on leagues outside of the PL (apart from the SPL of course) but all arrivals should be risk free and guaranteed to perform in the PL. We have to buy youth players that will develop but we also don’t want them to develop in our first team because they might make mistakes. We don’t want cast offs from top clubs, even if they’re good players, but all signings should have a pedigree and have played at a top level without actually of course ever have played at a top level. We don’t want to scrabble around for cheap loans but simultaneously the manager should use the loan market. We also want to buy in players to replace the ones we sell before we sell them but equally if the DOF sells any players at the end of the window he has to buy replacements even if he already brought them in beforehand.

The manager has to play young players, but the good young players that he does play don’t count. Also if a young player has arrived for big money and is an ‘obvious’ talent that anyone could have bought then this does not count as investing in youth. The DOF shouldn’t leave any gaps in the squad for promising youth players like Dobbin and Branthwaite though in case they’re crap so should have bought the promising youth player from Leeds even though he was overpriced. Basically the manager should play youth players more but the ones we’ve bought don’t count, not any from Scotland, and no academy players.

We should operate more like Brighton who buy low and sell their best players, but without actually selling any of our best players of course because we don’t want to be a selling club. We should equally though sell players at the peak of their value like Brighton and Brentford do but Richarlison Gordon Digne Stones Lukaku Barkley Gueye don’t count.



Any manager and DOF who cannot deliver all of the above, immediately, needs to gtfo out of the club

That's a very long post for such a lazy argument mate.

 

[Goat]

Hope he's having a nice holiday.

 

[Dixieslaces]

Right. Assuming every single thing goes perfectly which is how you’re clearly expecting it to go, that sounds reasonable. Here’s the thing - what if things don’t go swimmingly and we end up relegated to the Championship? What’s the plan from that point on? Because I’m not as confident as you that keeping Dyche in a job will result in us becoming a solid mid table side, he had years at Burnley and that wasn’t the end result.

“Success” isn’t even on the menu for me, it’s not something I’ve thought for a single second about. Right now our only hope of actually surviving as a football club is to cling on by the skin of our teeth to Premier League survival until the time comes when we’re sold. Is Dyche our best bet for that? From what I’ve observed, no.

This! And this is being optimistic IMO, we not only have to survive in the Prem we also need to survive financially based on what we are seeing from our finances this is by no means a given.

 

[NathDogg]

I agree with everything you have said here but I think it’s been like a slow drip developing into a leak. Our expectations have dropped year upon year after bad decision after bad decision. I still think the Koeman/Allardyce axis did untold damage. It would have been nice to clear the decks after that but we couldn’t have a fire sale because of players on inflated contracts so managers and DOFs are still feeling the far reaching effects of that unmitigated disaster. Then Benitez comes in and puts us back another couple of years like a bull in a China shop and here is where we are at. I would love to say we should be at top table but the reality at the moment is starkly different and this is reflected in us match going supporters. It’s a tough one mate.

I know what you mean mate. His best trick was turning fan against fan - that still hasn’t properly resolved itself.

It’s understand it’s been attrition and death by a thousand cuts for our expectations with kenwright leading the attack, and most match going fans are just punch drunk, tired, scared for our future both financially and from a footballing perspective, but once he made fans turn on other fans for wanting better and kill the protest during a match, he broke the entire fabric of the club.

I’m just glad my pops isn’t here to see how far we’ve fallen.

 

[Sheedy's right knee.]

I know what you mean mate. His best trick was turning fan against fan - that still hasn’t properly resolved itself.

It’s understand it’s been attrition and death by a thousand cuts for our expectations with kenwright leading the attack, and most match going fans are just punch drunk, tired, scared for our future both financially and from a footballing perspective, but once he made fans turn on other fans for wanting better and kill the protest during a match, he broke the entire fabric of the club.

I’m just glad my pops isn’t here to see how far we’ve fallen.

I totally agree mate there is a mood of apathy weirdly mixed with anger and your right. It has pitched fans against one another when we all want the same thing. A good competitive football team than competes for trophies and teams at every level.

 

[cantlivewithem]

Very good summary of our position and a realistic one.

There has been an incredible mess made at this club and of this club.

Dyche and Thelwell are not the latest link in the chain of calamities but have to be the last , we simply cannot continue hiring and firing managers and staff... that is the very policy that has landed us in the mess we are in where it has taken years to largely slim down a hugely expensive and expensive.

I think in general Thelwell has done well, moving a lot of players on while managing to bring in some good young players all on no budget at all rather than a shoestring budget.
Anybody believing that Graham Potter or any other manager will come in and magically transform this group of players is fooling themselves, ironically Brighton have got even better after Potter left them.

Dyche is used to working in the situation we are in at present and has a good record of keeping clubs in the division against the odds.

He may not be the manager for a successful Everton we we are so far off that at present it isn't even worth considering.

The recruitment of Garner, Onana,McNeill, Beto and Chermite are encouraging signs and any sensible supporter will realise that we also needed to bring in cheaper experienced players because we cannot afford to sign the players we would like to sign.

The positives are that finally the squad is not bloated with expensive players who never play( not sure about Dele or Gomes yet) and that we are still managing to recruit some young talent for the future.

I agree with the Thelwell point of view. I think we are right to be frustrated at what recruitment has become after spending and wasting so much money in the past. But that isn't on him, we were frustrated with the length of time it took him to bring players in this year but we have had to bring players in without virtually spending any actual money this window and he has had to operated extremely creatively in order to do this

With Dyche, as I made the point earlier, because the club has been run into the ground the way it has, Its almost impossible to judge whether he is the right man to manage Everton. Because right now our club isn't Everton. This isnt the same club I have supported for the last 40 odd years. Even in the dark days of the 90s, when we struggled it always felt like we were underachieving, It felt like the club could and should be better than the results and league positions we were getting . Whereas now, where we are is a true reflection of where we are at as a club. Obviously thats not good enough and the board take that responsibility

So although this is a depressing reality of what our club has become we must also remember that although we are rubbing shoulders with the likes of Luton, Burnley and Sheff Utd this is their ceiling. Our ceiling is much higher and once Everton sorts out this financial mess it has got itself into we have the capacity to get ourselves back up to the higher places in the table and that is when we know whether Dyche has what it takes to manage the real Everton

The sad thing is whether Everton can ever become again one of the elite clubs is not so certain. But becoming a top 10 club will become reality again. Unless we are taken over by a country, clubs like Everton and Villa who are both proper historically and traditionally big clubs may only cause the so called top six/seven to cautiously look over their shoulders at us rather than look at us above them

 

[Cameron Manning]

35 years ago; but some of us still remember.

Bill Kenwright has managed to convince evertonians that staying in this league is acceptable, and many buy it

Amazingly some still believe it!

 

[Tel001]

He’s extremely tactically inept

It’s on the players imo.

We have had how many mangers?

Silva
Lampard
Sam
Rafael
Carlo
Dyche

Only a multi CL world class manager could get any sort of a tune out of our players.

They players are simply turd , our defence is truely shocking and our midfield in the middle is just as bad.

We finally have a cf and some capable wide players when everyone is fit but if we can’t keep clean sheets we will be praying that Luton, sheff utd and another team have a worse season than us again.

 

[Tel001]

When was the last time Everton FC standards were set out from the top of the organisation with a clear and defined plan?

They are ,

Finish 17th with no money and do it for 2 more years

 

[nsno-chris]

It’s on the players imo.

We have had how many mangers?

Silva
Lampard
Sam
Rafael
Carlo
Dyche

Only a multi CL world class manager could get any sort of a tune out of our players.

They players are simply turd , our defence is truely shocking and our midfield in the middle is just as bad.

We finally have a cf and some capable wide players when everyone is fit but if we can’t keep clean sheets we will be praying that Luton, sheff utd and another team have a worse season than us again.

The team that Carlo had is completely different to what we have now

 

[windymiller]

It’s on the players imo.

We have had how many mangers?

Silva
Lampard
Sam
Rafael
Carlo
Dyche

Only a multi CL world class manager could get any sort of a tune out of our players.

They players are simply turd , our defence is truely shocking and our midfield in the middle is just as bad.

We finally have a cf and some capable wide players when everyone is fit but if we can’t keep clean sheets we will be praying that Luton, sheff utd and another team have a worse season than us again.

It's a completely different squad of players (barring Coleman) than it was under Silva. It's not just the players.