Space and stuff

[Walter Ego]

nothing thats been discovered.

but i whole heartily believe that we are not alone.

It's a dead cert imo

 

[fozzy]

Sorry mate, made sense to me when it was explained, probably better.

Try this. There are 4 dimensions in the universe. Height, weight, depth, and time. Humans are 3 dimensional, so can only think in terms of the first 3. We cannot think in terms of time. We THINK we can, hence, "where did 20 years go", but we cant. Otherwise, the last 20 years could be seen, and understood, like how you know a tall person is higher than a short person just by looking at them.

If we were 2D, say only width and depth, you would be as baffled by a tall person as we are by space.

That any good? @fozzy

yeah i "get" the 4 dimension thingy.

but what i dont get is an explosion happening with out a spark/start point.

but i suppose this goes back to the time thing.

 

[DualityNSNO]

ok a stupid question from me.

so where was the big bang? as in where is the oldest part of the universe and as its an ever expanding universe where is it expanding from?

ive heard the one theory that it was one big bang every where at once but i still cant get my head around that as there has to be a start/spark point to a bang doesnt there?

I've got a, well, way of explaining, or rather trying to do so, for this.

Think of having an enclosed space with growing heat, but with limitations on it's expanding - like a balloon. Fill this balloon with firecrackers and marbles, for example (or just really dense objects), and let said balloon roam free on the floor of a room, being blown about by vents or something, or being moved by something. Don't look inside the room, until you hear your hypothetically ever-expanding balloon pop - walk in and you'll see the floor is covered with marbles (or your dense objects), yet you can't pinpoint EXACTLY where it popped. This is what is meant by "it happened everywhere at once" - because everything was inside it, it happened to everything at the same time.

And then it took thousands of years for the first neutral atoms to be formed, and the rest is widely covered here/anywhere else probably.

That's my take on the thing, at least, sorry if it's super lame...

 

[Walter Ego]

There's fossils on mars identical to those on earth.

 

[roydo]

"All alone in space and time, there's nothing here but what's here's mine", as it says in a Placebo song.

Anyway, we might just be the ones that have science as we know it. There's no proof, as you've said, that there aren't more human civilisations out there, but they're still ages behind (think like - they're still Stone Age, relative to our Modern Age of Discoveries).

Its fascinating to me. They could be millions of years ahead of us, but are defeated by the same laws of physics that we are in ever being able to travel by time to bridge the huge distances between us.

 

[fozzy]

That was a good question so i had a look on google and remain as clueless now as i was 10 mins ago!

I think if you take a small round balloon and cover it with dots their is technically no "centre", they are all the same distance apart. Then when you add more air the whole thing becomes bigger, they dots get further away from each other but there's still no centre.

I always thought of the big b ang explosion to be like a normal explosion from 1 point but apparently it wasn't.

i would have thought my mouth blowing air into the balloon was the "centre"?

but im on the ale now too so its getting really confusing.

 

[DualityNSNO]

yeah i "get" the 4 dimension thingy.

but what i dont get is an explosion happening with out a spark/start point.

but i suppose this goes back to the time thing.

Hoping my balloon analogy would shed some light on this for you...

 

[DualityNSNO]

Its fascinating to me. They could be millions of years ahead of us, but are defeated by the same laws of physics that we are in ever being able to travel by time to bridge the huge distances between us.

It's fascinating to me too, I love space!

The fact that we are in the same situation is even more fascinating really.

 

[roydo]

There's fossils on mars identical to those on earth.

Not fossils mate. Very similar geographic particles, which isnt than remarkable really. Its like your neighbours house has similar sand to you in their concrete walls.

 

[fozzy]

I've got a, well, way of explaining, or rather trying to do so, for this.

Think of having an enclosed space with growing heat, but with limitations on it's expanding - like a balloon. Fill this balloon with firecrackers and marbles, for example (or just really dense objects), and let said balloon roam free on the floor of a room, being blown about by vents or something, or being moved by something. Don't look inside the room, until you hear your hypothetically ever-expanding balloon pop - walk in and you'll see the floor is covered with marbles (or your dense objects), yet you can't pinpoint EXACTLY where it popped. This is what is meant by "it happened everywhere at once" - because everything was inside it, it happened to everything at the same time.

And then it took thousands of years for the first neutral atoms to be formed, and the rest is widely covered here/anywhere else probably.

That's my take on the thing, at least, sorry if it's super lame...

best by a mile.

so what about the ever expanding?

 

[roydo]

yeah i "get" the 4 dimension thingy.

but what i dont get is an explosion happening with out a spark/start point.

but i suppose this goes back to the time thing.

Exactly. Its expanding into time. Into the future. And happened in the past. We just cannot fathom it.

If I said, "The universe started as nothing, but due to science and stuff, grows taller, every day, and gets fatter an fatter, and is currently about 4million feet tall, and 12 million miles round, and every day it will grow taller and fatter"

Bet you can see that. Or imagine it.

 

[fozzy]

I've got a, well, way of explaining, or rather trying to do so, for this.

Think of having an enclosed space with growing heat, but with limitations on it's expanding - like a balloon. Fill this balloon with firecrackers and marbles, for example (or just really dense objects), and let said balloon roam free on the floor of a room, being blown about by vents or something, or being moved by something. Don't look inside the room, until you hear your hypothetically ever-expanding balloon pop - walk in and you'll see the floor is covered with marbles (or your dense objects), yet you can't pinpoint EXACTLY where it popped. This is what is meant by "it happened everywhere at once" - because everything was inside it, it happened to everything at the same time.

And then it took thousands of years for the first neutral atoms to be formed, and the rest is widely covered here/anywhere else probably.

That's my take on the thing, at least, sorry if it's super lame...

ok just had a ciggie and thought about this.

so saying the balloon exploded perfect in every direction you would have a sphere of debris around where the ballon exploded wouldnt you?

 

[fozzy]

Exactly. Its expanding into time. Into the future. And happened in the past. We just cannot fathom it.

If I said, "The universe started as nothing, but due to science and stuff, grows taller, every day, and gets fatter an fatter, and is currently about 4million feet tall, and 12 million miles round, and every day it will grow taller and fatter"

Bet you can see that. Or imagine it.

sounds like my uncle that.

 

[DualityNSNO]

best by a mile.

so what about the ever expanding?

Hm... Good one.

Imagine your balloon is actually filled with marbles (or able-to-roll objects?), and your room is infinite (it is a theory after all!) if the explosion is very, very big (as it was) - you'd expect them to go very, very far, correct?

Now switch to space terms - distance, velocity, inertia*, and even time - all are very different in space than on our good little Earth... Going deeper into velocity and inertia - inertia is the tendency of objects to move in a direction at a constant velocity.

Speaking in the sense of "time is a lot different here than in space" - everything is potentially still moving at a constant velocity in it's original direction X, seeing as for the planets/rocks/asteroids/the Universe time's not the same as it is for us - "our" 1000 years might as well be a cosmic/planetary second for all we know!

That's pretty much what I'd say for that really...

 

[roydo]

ok just had a ciggie and thought about this.

so saying the balloon exploded perfect in every direction you would have a sphere of debris around where the ballon exploded wouldnt you?

Kind of. Well yes, but the balloon exploded in a vacuum, so the debris is not on the floor, but floating all around the room. Science, gravity in particular takes over, and stuff starts circling around each other, bigger bits attracting smaller bits, and over time, pretty galaxies and solar systems develop.

The biggest bits of debris retain heat from the explosion, and they are suns. If the suns can heat up other bits of debris going round them, and hydrogen and oxygen are in those bits, you might get water created when those particles heat up. Then you might have a chance of life.

And cos its a vaccum, not a room, it will expand for ever, which brings us back to time, which we cant understand.