- Status
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yeh we could have thunderbird 2 like the redshite!!
Iconic = [Poor language removed]
You know nothing.
You are irrelevant.
HalewoodBlue
Player Valuation: £8m
I know everything, you are worthless. Which of the minions are you on kipper then
Tennessee Blue Mike
Player Valuation: £50m
The Devils in the details. My opinion is you'll see the [Poor language removed] build their play park then more interest will be shown with us on inner city planning. Third time is the charm so the next after Kings Dock, Kirkby should be the one. Alas, it will probably when I have grandkids though.
HalewoodBlue
Player Valuation: £8m
Quite agree, but am not going to just take it
stanleypark
Player Valuation: £1m
Character can be achieved in a more subtle way, by recreating the Leich criss-crosseses on the side stand. Re-creating the old Main Stand Gable.
Options for expansion, build each stand to allow for an extra tier.
Get the executive boxes out of the End Stands to double up on the side stands. I'm not asking for extravagant changes, just essential ones to the basics of the design.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Mate, the only reason we're seeing that little bit of Leitch engineering on the Bullen's now is that they can't get advertisers into that non-televised side of the ground that'd make the effort worthwhile. That wont be the case in any nu-stadium. We're told commercial tie ups will not be a problem there - thus, no space for the criss-crossed stands.
As for expansion, were extremely unlikely to fill any 50,000 seater now never mind expansions. They're only needed when a team is successful...you need money for that, and any monies generated will be going to pay off that £78M (at this moment in time!) stadium wedge + the other debts the club have been carrying for the past decade.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
...further to the debate on iconic stadiums and the Kirkby proposal, here's the conclusions of Knowsley MBC own planning officers....
"Stadium – the building has been criticised by some consultees and local community representations as being of poor design quality. It has to be acknowledged that the design adopted here, in contrast to some recent stadium proposals, is not one for an iconic exemplar building. Rather, the design is a somewhat more traditional stadium design with four separate stands and this shows in its outward appearance. Indeed, a somewhat utilitarian and cost-conscious design is evident in the way that the underside of the upper stands is revealed to outward view."
From the Agenda and Report prepared by the Planning Office for the council committee members.
Who the [Poor language removed] would have voted for that if they'd have been informed by one of the club's own partners back in August 07?
"Stadium – the building has been criticised by some consultees and local community representations as being of poor design quality. It has to be acknowledged that the design adopted here, in contrast to some recent stadium proposals, is not one for an iconic exemplar building. Rather, the design is a somewhat more traditional stadium design with four separate stands and this shows in its outward appearance. Indeed, a somewhat utilitarian and cost-conscious design is evident in the way that the underside of the upper stands is revealed to outward view."
From the Agenda and Report prepared by the Planning Office for the council committee members.
Who the [Poor language removed] would have voted for that if they'd have been informed by one of the club's own partners back in August 07?
stanleypark
Player Valuation: £1m
We may struggle at present to get the 50k but the stadium is for the long term. Now ambition is about ifs and being positive. We cannot accept for our board to say 'we're not going to allow our stadium to ever be able to compete in size with Liverpool's cos we never will'!
What happens if we do get success, are we to then sit back and enjoy the ride or are we going to capitalise on it. What if this Kirkby stadium does prove to be right? We would then need go beyond 50,000. If we are to go beyond 50,000 then we should allow ourselves a good choice on how we do that. We may wish to retain four individual stands, and so add tiers to the side stands for example.
Don't forget, these expansions could take place in 5, 10, 20 yrs after the stadium is built. It may never need to. My point is to have the stadium built so that is has a variety of options (it alsi gives us a greater ultimate capcity) on how to expand. There's no point at looking at getting to the next level, because if we get there, we can't go on from there, we need to look at the next 2 levels
Your other point, unfortunately we probably will choose to cover the criss-crosses. There could be a possibility to have have them above and below the execs on the side stands if they get their act together and move the Execs on the End Stands to double up on the sides. Perhaps then we could have adverts on just the one row. Perhaps have the criss crosses at the back of the stand? How about recreating the old Gable? I do believe it is important to have character, however it can be done in a more subtle and tasteful way, it does not have to cost a load
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
But this is the point, it's all short-termism with this stadium proposal. Design is dicatated to by money from the cross-funding + whatever Everton can muster up, then you buy what you can get - and build it in whatever space Tesco allow you within the whole development - and if that doesn't get you an iconic stadium to begin with or the potential to expand later, then that's just tough [Poor language removed].
It's a low quality, off the peg stadium for a club unable to call the shots. You can make some sort of cheap primitive statement by having a KOP-like end I suppose, but I think iconography and football stadia has moved on a bit on from that type of thing now hasnt it? We see expensive cladding type exteriors as with the Alianz Arena or the new Camp Nou; or Shalke/Millenium sliding roofs; or as in Mexico stadiums set inside natural environments like an extinct volcano even!!. The whole world - even third world countries - are witnessing the building of fantastic stadiums.
This one in Kirkby isn't and will never be a fantastic stadium.
kenada_blue
Welcome to Barcelonaton FC
Goodison isnt a fantastic stadium from a aesthetic POV. What makes it good is the atmosphere due to its basic design and its history.
I've had friends who've been to Wembley and they all say the same thing - its a sight to behold but the sound doesnt travel, everything is hollow and feels flat. I've heard the same with the Emirates.
Are they [Poor language removed] stadiums? No. Have we got money to build a £500+ stadium like that? No. Can we build a stadium that can accomadate and create a great atmosphere, without obstructed views, and with new, modern facilites well above Goodison and Anfield? Yes.
If stadiums that cost way more than what we're building cannot unite great atmosphere and nu-age design somethings got to give way. A tarty, flashy, park-end shapped like a giant 70ft bronze Dixie Dean might look good for example, but would it be any good? No.
Here's something from the report -
"However, within those constraints, it is your officers’ view that considerable efforts have been made to create an attractive design of building. In particular, each elevation is marked by capped tower structures (four on each of the longer side elevations and three on the shorter end elevations) that extend along the majority of the underside of each stand. These features help to break up the overall mass of the building, create visual interest and provide an effective means of masking the main entrance stairways, lifts and upper level circulation. They are further aided in this task by steel columns that project from above the towers and through the stadium roof, the overhanging roof and supporting cables. The corners of the stadium have been infilled, with a combination of high level glazing and a curved fascia, to resolve and add visual interest to the junction between each stand. Overall, the design of the stadium is considered to be an appropriate response to the brief."
Isnt the report more of a evaluation of the proposals, offering areas of imporvement anyway?
DENNIS STEVENS
Player Valuation: £20m
eh? are you claiming that the estimate wyness gave of approx. £10 million additional revenue from the kirkby stadium is "negative publicity"? all i'm claiming is that from that figure it's clear that the stadium isn't going to deliver substantial additional transfer funds for moyes & as that's the prime reason for moving then the whole scheme already seems doomed to fail even at this stage.
Sadly, engineering a Stadium to be 'future proof' (i.e. over engineering the foundations, supporting and superstructures to be able to accommodate the load of extra tiers for example) costs extra.
Bearing in mind how marginal the finances for the Stadium already are, prior to call-in, spiralling costs and shrinking retail enabler, do you think we are:
a- likely to spend the extra, just in case we possibly need it sometime in the future.
or
b- just going to get the bloody thing built, and worry about that later.
... oh, and it's Big Keith making the call .... that'll be a b then will it?
stanleypark
Player Valuation: £1m
I agree that Kirkby is far from a fantastic stadium and totally agree with your point that its designed for the short term. The way I see it, is as a damage limitations exercise if this thing does go ahead. Push for improvements rather than us all just saying everythings rubbish, push for a better design for atmosphere like a kop-like design, push for more options for expansion, and push for more character in the design, but be realistic, we can't afford extravagant changes. So we need to push for the essentials. At the end of the day, its us that are going to be in it for the rest of our days. Once its built,its too late to moan about things like the atmosphere then.
- Status