Steve Walsh - no longer our Director of Football

[blue61]

...went to watch PSG v Bordeau on Saturday, huge gulf between the sides even though they were on the same points before kick off. It was a stroll in the park for PSG, lots of quality on the pitch as you would expect.

The diminutive PSG Italian midfielder, Marco Veratti was a favourite for me but I was particularly taken with a cameo from the bloke who replaced him with 30mins to go, Adrien Rabiot. 21 year old Frenchman, 6ft 2in with a stride that made the pitch look small. I expect he'll struggle for game time at that club, if you read this Mr Walsh he could be worth a look at.

Any penalties Eggs?

 

[bicycleheader]

...went to watch PSG v Bordeau on Saturday, huge gulf between the sides even though they were on the same points before kick off. It was a stroll in the park for PSG, lots of quality on the pitch as you would expect.

The diminutive PSG Italian midfielder, Marco Veratti was a favourite for me but I was particularly taken with a cameo from the bloke who replaced him with 30mins to go, Adrien Rabiot. 21 year old Frenchman, 6ft 2in with a stride that made the pitch look small. I expect he'll struggle for game time at that club, if you read this Mr Walsh he could be worth a look at.

Two of my favourite players right now. Great to watch

 

[Eggs]

Any penalties Eggs?

....only the normal one that day that Milner dispatched.

 

[BlueToff]

Yet, 12months ago we looked far better and with a better keeper we would have achieved much more.

I cant see any 'piecing together' playing long ball negative tactics against relegation candidates.

We haven't played 'long ball' negative tactics.

The only real 'relegation candidates' we've played have been Sunderland - crosses into the box rather than trying to pass through teams actually works...

Your hatred of Koeman is unreal Zat.

 

[BlueToff]

...went to watch PSG v Bordeau on Saturday, huge gulf between the sides even though they were on the same points before kick off. It was a stroll in the park for PSG, lots of quality on the pitch as you would expect.

The diminutive PSG Italian midfielder, Marco Veratti was a favourite for me but I was particularly taken with a cameo from the bloke who replaced him with 30mins to go, Adrien Rabiot. 21 year old Frenchman, 6ft 2in with a stride that made the pitch look small. I expect he'll struggle for game time at that club, if you read this Mr Walsh he could be worth a look at.

Rabiot will have a pick of clubs if he leaves Egss unfortunately - and he actually has been playing quite a lot under Emery.

 

[MartyMcFly]

We haven't played 'long ball' negative tactics.

The only real 'relegation candidates' we've played have been Sunderland - crosses into the box rather than trying to pass through teams actually works...

Your hatred of Koeman is unreal Zat.

In fairness the football hasn't been great. It's not quite long ball but it's hardly sexy progressive football either.

Bournemouth made us look like a Pulis team.

 

[BlueToff]

In fairness the football hasn't been great. It's not quite long ball but it's hardly sexy progressive football either.

Bournemouth made us look like a Pulis team.

No, Bournemouth made us look like how we played for the last 6 months of RM's tenure.

The football has been just fine when we've clicked. The issue is that we're still switching to a new style. Defensively we've looked loads better, but Koeman is building from ground zero in terms of a) fitness for a pressing game (we're just about there now), b) players adjusting to that (Barkley, as much as I'm a fan, has been so poor in this regard recently) and c) players simply haven't been taking very good chances.

We're 5th - and yet the football hasn't been the best or up to the standard that the fans and, much much more importantly, the manager expects. That bodes well.

 

[Creature]

No, Bournemouth made us look like how we played for the last 6 months of RM's tenure.

The football has been just fine when we've clicked. The issue is that we're still switching to a new style. Defensively we've looked loads better, but Koeman is building from ground zero in terms of a) fitness for a pressing game (we're just about there now), b) players adjusting to that (Barkley, as much as I'm a fan, has been so poor in this regard recently) and c) players simply haven't been taking very good chances.

We're 5th - and yet the football hasn't been the best or up to the standard that the fans and, much much more importantly, the manager expects. That bodes well.

The fitness and pressing seem to have stalled for me.

Palace (and this is palace), had lots of time on the ball in the second half. The players weren't blowing their lungs out (del boy style) so why less pressing?

Has Ronald eased off on them compared to the first couple of games I wonder.

Palace on the other hand never stopped pressing and we were lucky they didn't have a bit more quality.

Ross definately suffers with the 'new' pressing game that most teams are now adopting so a move back could well help him.

 

[MartyMcFly]

No, Bournemouth made us look like how we played for the last 6 months of RM's tenure.

The football has been just fine when we've clicked. The issue is that we're still switching to a new style. Defensively we've looked loads better, but Koeman is building from ground zero in terms of a) fitness for a pressing game (we're just about there now), b) players adjusting to that (Barkley, as much as I'm a fan, has been so poor in this regard recently) and c) players simply haven't been taking very good chances.

We're 5th - and yet the football hasn't been the best or up to the standard that the fans and, much much more importantly, the manager expects. That bodes well.

Funny. I thought we were much better under Martinez's tenure when we played them. You can't keep blaming Martinez.

He's had the squad now for month and we are already in October. Martinez had completely changed our style from Moyes to his own within that time and many managers have also done the same. Plus we never played like that under Martinez. We were boring, we were predictable, we were lethargic but we never resorted to playing like that even though at times we probably should have.

I'm not arguing for Martinez. I'm glad clown shoes is gone. I just don't buy the argument that it has anything to do with him.

As for your individual points

a) Fitness. We started of well but we haven't pressed in ages. Maybe it has been so as to accommodate Rom. I don't know but we don't do it now and it has nothing to do with fitness.
b) Barkley is the other one who like Rom doesn't like to work and I don't know how much that's down to tactics from the manager or the player. If it's down to the player which under Koeman looks to be the case and he isn't doing what is asked I'm shocked Barkley has lasted this long without being dropped.
c) All teams miss chances. The games we have drawn or got beat personally I think we were the poorer team in all of them. Maybe not by much and the overall points we have taken is about right but we certainly don't deserve any more.

We are 5th because we have a solid defense and a goal scorer and that's something that should give us all hope for a good season. It's just a shame the bits in the middle aren't great.

 

[catcherintherye]

How so? All i see is the defence sitting deep, full backs told to sit back (mostly)...deep midfielders then a gap to the wingers and lukaku which is breached with long balls...

Not progress to play like Wimbledon or Bolton.

Well it depends on how you view progress really, whether it's about style of play or about winning. I did a tactical deconstruction of Koeman before the season started and I think the majority of what I predicted based on his numbers at Southampton have proven to be true. I suspect that has lessened the surprise for me.

This is why I mentioned Royle though. Immediately after Walker left Royle did the same thing. The flair players went and lads from the reserves like Parkinson & Hincliffe were included. Flair players like Samway's were sidelined and in all honesty never got a look in again. We played like Bolton or Wimbledon in the following matches and the majority of that season. If you don't believe me go back and watch the 95 cup Quarter final against Newcastle. We had 6 or 7 lads who were over 6 ft (Watson, Unsworth, Jackson, Ablett, Ferguson & Parkinson) and we utilised their strengths off set plays.

The truth is 20 years on nobody really remembers that and hold Royle's team up as a pantheon of good attacking football. I am not trying to knock Royle here but just point out if you get good results over time people's memory of the football becomes revisionist.

Where we were left at the end of last season was as a side in absolute free fall. I have never seen us as outplayed in matches as we were in a number of games last season. In fairness to Martinez that's not representative of his entire time, or even his final season. However being solid and competitive is a big step forward.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Well it depends on how you view progress really, whether it's about style of play or about winning. I did a tactical deconstruction of Koeman before the season started and I think the majority of what I predicted based on his numbers at Southampton have proven to be true. I suspect that has lessened the surprise for me.

This is why I mentioned Royle though. Immediately after Walker left Royle did the same thing. The flair players went and lads from the reserves like Parkinson & Hincliffe were included. Flair players like Samway's were sidelined and in all honesty never got a look in again. We played like Bolton or Wimbledon in the following matches and the majority of that season. If you don't believe me go back and watch the 95 cup Quarter final against Newcastle. We had 6 or 7 lads who were over 6 ft (Watson, Unsworth, Jackson, Ablett, Ferguson & Parkinson) and we utilised their strengths off set plays.

The truth is 20 years on nobody really remembers that and hold Royle's team up as a pantheon of good attacking football. I am not trying to knock Royle here but just point out if you get good results over time people's memory of the football becomes revisionist.

Where we were left at the end of last season was as a side in absolute free fall. I have never seen us as outplayed in matches as we were in a number of games last season. In fairness to Martinez that's not representative of his entire time, or even his final season. However being solid and competitive is a big step forward.

Do they?

They were called the "The Dogs of War" for a reason.

I really hope history isn't repeating itself however I suspect you are correct.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The fitness and pressing seem to have stalled for me.

Palace (and this is palace), had lots of time on the ball in the second half. The players weren't blowing their lungs out (del boy style) so why less pressing?

Has Ronald eased off on them compared to the first couple of games I wonder.

Palace on the other hand never stopped pressing and we were lucky they didn't have a bit more quality.

Ross definately suffers with the 'new' pressing game that most teams are now adopting so a move back could well help him.

I think it's a mixture of factors. The players we have with pace and power (Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas) do not have the inclination or attitude to press for 90 minutes. No matter how many times Koeman drops them or subs them they come out seemingly with the same old jogging around letting the game pass them by. The players who do have the motivation to work for 90 mins (Barry and Cleverley) don't have the pace or power to do so. They're trying to plug gaps left by others but end up stranded unable to get to opposition midfielders quick enough.

Koeman's recruitment of Gueye and Bolasie have helped somewhat because they have the pace and power to keep that game up for 90 minutes. Teams like Spurs Liverpool City can do this from 1-11 (and their subs) all game nearly every game.

Sadly the era of anti football seems to be upon us now. The biggest fastest strongest teams will most likely win more games in the premier league than a team packed with intricate tricksters. Unless you've got Messi and Iniesta in their prime, it is almost impossible to work around these mad dog teams who will tear after you from the first whistle.

Everton never used to be worried about rising to a physical challenge. In the glory of the 80s, the depths of the 90s, and the early 2000s we at least always prided ourselves on the fact that we could compete physically with any team. We never shied away. We bullied far better Liverpool teams in the 90s whilst in the 80s we could out play or outfight anyone.

We now have to recognise what is happening in the prem now, and not be too proud to embrace it. We need to regain our physical edge over teams and son the battle before winning the match.

Sadly a collection of some of the best players in footballing history at Barcelona have convinced the Martinez's of the world that physical strength speed and height are bad things and that only ball retention wins games. Other teams in Europe who have been successful in the same period (Chelsea, Atletico, Bayern, Real, Dortmund) have built their success on pace power counterattacking football.

We need to get back to bullying teams like Palace off Goodison rather than getting our slow creative players to chase shadows at our own stadium for 45 mins if every game.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I think it's a mixture of fa ties. The players we have with pace and power (Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas) do not have the inclination or attitude to press for 90 minutes. No matter how many times Koeman drops them or subs them they come out seemingly with the same old jogging around letting the game pass them by. The players who do have the motivation to work for 90 mins (Barry and Cleverley) don't have the pace or power to do so. They're trying to plug gaps left by others but end up stranded unable to get to opposition midfielders quick enough.

Koeman's recruitment of Gueye and Bolasie have helped somewhat because they have the pace and power to keep that game up for 90 minutes. Teams like Spurs Liverpool City can do this from 1-11 (and their subs) all game nearly every game.

Sadly the era of anti football seems to be upon us now. The biggest fastest strongest teams will most likely win more games in the premier league than a team packed with intricate tricksters. Unless you've got Messi and Iniesta in their prime, it is almost impossible to work around these mad dog teams who will tear after you from the first whistle.

Everton never used to be worried about rising to a physical challenge. In the glory of the 80s, the depths of the 90s, and the early 2000s we at least always prided ourselves on the fact that we could compete physically with any team. We never shied away. We bullied far better Liverpool teams in the 90s whilst in the 80s we could out play or outfight anyone.

We now have to recognise what is happening in the prem now, and not be too proud to embrace it. We need to regain our physical edge over teams and son the battle before winning the match.

Sadly a collection of some of the best players in footballing history at Barcelona have convinced the Martinez's of the world that physical strength speed and height are bad things and that only ball retention wins games. Other teams in Europe who have been successful in the same period (Chelsea, Atletico, Bayern, Real, Dortmund) have built their success on pace power counterattacking football.

We need to get back to bullying teams like Palace off Goodison rather than getting our slow creative players to chase shadows at our own stadium for 45 mins if every game.

Martinez was an even more extreme version of possession football because I think people forget Barcelona never lost the physical battle. They simply hunted in packs. They also didn't use Tika-Taka to keep the opponent from scoring. They played forward when they could. If teams pressed them they played vertical through them. Martinez played sideways and back until the ball ended at the GK to kick because he was using it as a defensive measure. There's a big difference.

But besides. No one has a problem playing on the counter attack however Real, Bayern, Atletico don't play long ball. They play on the counter attack but it's all short along the ground passing. It's just direct and one touch. At the moment we hoof it.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Martinez was an even more extreme version of possession football because I think people forget Barcelona never lost the physical battle. They simply hunted in packs. They also didn't use Tika-Taka to keep the opponent from scoring. They played forward when they could. If teams pressed them they played vertical through them. Martinez played sideways and back until the ball ended at the GK to kick because he was using it as a defensive measure. There's a big difference.

But besides. No one has a problem playing on the counter attack however Real, Bayern, Atletico don't play long ball. They play on the counter attack but it's all short along the ground passing. It's just direct and one touch. At the moment we hoof it.

Yes and one of the reasons we end up hoofing it is because we have a lot of players in the squad who have had three seasons of indoctrination that football can only be played from the back. So when we win the ball in midfield (on the rare occasion) our forward players are not even on the move, the midfielder automatically drops it back and then we start an exercise of playing from the back trying to break down 11 men (which inevitably fails so we good it). Football has always been a transition game but Martinez disassembled that principle in this squad and we are suffering for it now. We have a team that believes pressuring the ball only starts on the edge of your own area and that launching quick effective counters is somehow repulsive. It is going to take Koeman a long time to shift the players away from this mentality.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Yes and one of the reasons we end up hoofing it is because we have a lot of players in the squad who have had three seasons of indoctrination that football can only be played from the back. So when we win the ball in midfield (on the rare occasion) our forward players are not even on the move, the midfielder automatically drops it back and then we start an exercise of playing from the back trying to break down 11 men (which inevitably fails so we good it). Football has always been a transition game but Martinez disassembled that principle in this squad and we are suffering for it now. We have a team that believes pressuring the ball only starts on the edge of your own area and that launching quick effective counters is somehow repulsive. It is going to take Koeman a long time to shift the players away from this mentality.

I don't know if you are right or it's what you want to believe.

Under Unsworth against Norwich the team looked like the had finally been allowed to play with the hand brake off and that was one game straight after Martinez.

Even during Martinez reign there was the FA Cup semi final were the same thing happened in the 2nd half. I think it's tactics but hopefully you are right.