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The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

Who will you be voting for?

  • Tory

    Votes: 38 9.9%
  • Diet Tory (Labour)

    Votes: 132 34.3%
  • Tory Zero (Greens)

    Votes: 44 11.4%
  • Extra Tory with lemon (UKIP)

    Votes: 40 10.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 8.1%
  • Cheese on toast

    Votes: 91 23.6%

  • Total voters
    385
  • Poll closed .
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John Healey chairs the all-party parliamentary group on EU-US investment, and has been doing his best to prevent trade unions and campaign groups from joining opposition to TTIP over the past few months. Happily, all major trade unions in Britain are now part of the campaign to stop TTIP. So here are some basic truths on the NHS and TTIP, starting with the most important and getting more technical as they go on.

1. Health services, medical services (including midwifery and physiotherapy) and dental services are all included in the TTIP negotiations. We already knew this because we saw it with our own eyes in the EU’s draft offer to the USA that was uncovered last month. Indeed, Garcia Bercero’s letter acknowledges that health services are on the table. The only sector that has been excluded from the TTIP talks is audio-visual services, as a result of dogged insistence by the French. All other public services are in, and can be traded away for further liberalisation if the US negotiators so demand.

If David Cameron wished to exclude the NHS or any other public service from the negotiations, he could do as the French government has done. All that is needed for this to happen, as the British Medical Association (BMA) has demanded, is for no mention of health services to appear in TTIP at all. In reality, of course, it is Cameron’s government that has already opened up the NHS to private providers by means of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act. Why would he raise a finger to get it excluded from TTIP?

The French wanted to protect the audio-visual services and got it excluded but the Tories didn't pipe up to protect the NHS. Why?

2. Garcia Bercero’s letter also confirms another key charge from opponents of TTIP: that the NHS is open to attack under the new investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) rules that TTIP would introduce between the EU and USA. For the first time, US corporations would be able to bypass our domestic courts and challenge our national health policy decisions before ad hoc arbitration tribunals, and to sue us for hundreds of millions of dollars in ‘damages’ as a result of future policy changes that might affect their bottom line. This is one clear mechanism that would prevent any future government from bringing the NHS back into public sector hands, as the cost of compensating private providers would render such a move instantly unattractive.

Garcia Bercero would like us to believe that future challenges to the NHS would be ‘unlikely’. Yet the Slovak Republic has already lost a multi-million dollar case under similar rules to Dutch insurance company Achmea for reversing the country’s earlier (and deeply unpopular) privatisation of health insurance. Tobacco giant Philip Morris is currently using ISDS provisions to sue the Australian government for billions of dollars over its new public health law that all cigarettes must be sold in plain paper packaging. Ken Clarke MP, the minister with responsibility for TTIP, has admitted that the UK could face exactly such challenges from US health corporations if the treaty goes through".

Don't worry the NHS is safe in Tories hand. "We will keep the public debt down by selling the NHS off and save the fines", will be their election rallying cry.

4. This brings us to the final reason given by Garcia Bercero as to why we should not worry about the inclusion of public services in TTIP. Individual EU member states are still allowed to register their own special reservations for particular services in the liberalisation tables drawn up by the negotiators and submitted to the other side in the talks. Yet the UK government has entered such a reservation in TTIP for ambulance services only. Under TTIP, US health care companies would have the right to supply hospital services or social services.
 
So this thing would allow a US company, or French one for that matter, to just say, "we can run that GP surgery cheaper, so hand it over", and thats that?

The GP surgery will have to go out for tender. Us health companies, backed by $billions, in particular will bid low to win the contract. As there will be no regulation, deemed anti trade, they can do what they want.

4. This brings us to the final reason given by Garcia Bercero as to why we should not worry about the inclusion of public services in TTIP. Individual EU member states are still allowed to register their own special reservations for particular services in the liberalisation tables drawn up by the negotiators and submitted to the other side in the talks. Yet the UK government has entered such a reservation in TTIP for ambulance services only. Under TTIP, US health care companies would have the right to supply hospital services or social services.
 
The GP surgery will have to go out for tender. Us health companies, backed by $billions, in particular will bid low to win the contract. As there will be no regulation, deemed anti trade, they can do what they want.

4. This brings us to the final reason given by Garcia Bercero as to why we should not worry about the inclusion of public services in TTIP. Individual EU member states are still allowed to register their own special reservations for particular services in the liberalisation tables drawn up by the negotiators and submitted to the other side in the talks. Yet the UK government has entered such a reservation in TTIP for ambulance services only. Under TTIP, US health care companies would have the right to supply hospital services or social services.

But only if they were out to tender still?
 
The GP surgery will have to go out for tender. Us health companies, backed by $billions, in particular will bid low to win the contract. As there will be no regulation, deemed anti trade, they can do what they want.

4. This brings us to the final reason given by Garcia Bercero as to why we should not worry about the inclusion of public services in TTIP. Individual EU member states are still allowed to register their own special reservations for particular services in the liberalisation tables drawn up by the negotiators and submitted to the other side in the talks. Yet the UK government has entered such a reservation in TTIP for ambulance services only. Under TTIP, US health care companies would have the right to supply hospital services or social services.

I'm sorry, where are you getting that all existing NHS services will have to go out to tender? Where are you getting the bit that you mentioned earlier about having to accept bids or face legal action?
 

But only if they were out to tender still?

And presumably only if the NHS commissioning body actually selected their bid. I'm wondering here if people aren't seeing the option for 3rd parties to bid for certain services and coming up with all sorts off the back of it. I mean it wasn't that many posts ago that it was all about a guaranteed US style health system with insurance and all. 2+2=519
 
And presumably only if the NHS commissioning body actually selected their bid. I'm wondering here if people aren't seeing the option for 3rd parties to bid for certain services and coming up with all sorts off the back of it. I mean it wasn't that many posts ago that it was all about a guaranteed US style health system with insurance and all. 2+2=519

Dunno mate. There has been free trade between EU members for eons, and tons of rules that should prevent governments only giving contracts to domestic companies, (Bombardier for one example losing out to a German train maker, Seimans ?). But at the end of the day, the contract has to be up for grabs in the first place, and having dealt with the tendering for Govt contracts, believe me, there are billions of reasons they can give for not selecting a specific bidder.
 
Dunno mate. There has been free trade between EU members for eons, and tons of rules that should prevent governments only giving contracts to domestic companies, (Bombardier for one example losing out to a German train maker, Seimans ?). But at the end of the day, the contract has to be up for grabs in the first place, and having dealt with the tendering for Govt contracts, believe me, there are billions of reasons they can give for not selecting a specific bidder.

Indeed, the NHS procurement process is a labyrinth at the best of times. I don't think it's going to unravel just like that. Whoever delivers whatever service should be the best for the job. Nothing else should really enter the consideration.
 
I'm sorry, where are you getting that all existing NHS services will have to go out to tender? Where are you getting the bit that you mentioned earlier about having to accept bids or face legal action?

Do you know what TTIP is? Have you read anything about it? You should do a bit of reading. It might help you and find out what it is. Reading was always a suggestion of mine to my pupils.

Wherever you live there has been people out for the last year explaining what it is, handing out leaflets and trying to get people to sign a petition.

You may have missed them or they might be on your high street this week.
 
Do you know what TTIP is? Have you read anything about it? You should do a bit of reading. It might help you and find out what it is. Reading was always a suggestion of mine to my pupils.

Wherever you live there has been people out for the last year explaining what it is, handing out leaflets and trying to get people to sign a petition.

You may have missed them or they might be on your high street this week.

I have only read what you posted mate. Never heard of it, well I had, but didnt know its name, if that makes sense. In a nutshell, it removes tariffs for non EU countries to export into the EU? And by extension, for outside companies to compete on an equal footing for government contracts, be they be defence, health, whatever?
 

Do you know what TTIP is? Have you read anything about it? You should do a bit of reading. It might help you and find out what it is. Reading was always a suggestion of mine to my pupils.

Wherever you live there has been people out for the last year explaining what it is, handing out leaflets and trying to get people to sign a petition.

You may have missed them or they might be on your high street this week.

I read the section of the EU site devoted to it and a couple of articles about it on the Economist. Everything else seems shrouded in mystery. I only tend to see folks reading from the bible on my local high street. Never seen anyone talking about an EU/US trade agreement.

Where do the people with the leaflets get their information from? Are they in the know somehow?
 
I read the section of the EU site devoted to it and a couple of articles about it on the Economist. Everything else seems shrouded in mystery. I only tend to see folks reading from the bible on my local high street. Never seen anyone talking about an EU/US trade agreement.

Where do the people with the leaflets get their information from? Are they in the know somehow?

Which sections and which economist articles?

"Garcia Bercero would like us to believe that future challenges to the NHS would be ‘unlikely’. Yet the Slovak Republic has already lost a multi-million dollar case under similar rules to Dutch insurance company Achmea for reversing the country’s earlier (and deeply unpopular) privatisation of health insurance. Tobacco giant Philip Morris is currently using ISDS provisions to sue the Australian government for billions of dollars over its new public health law that all cigarettes must be sold in plain paper packaging. Ken Clarke MP, the minister with responsibility for TTIP, has admitted that the UK could face exactly such challenges from US health corporations if the treaty goes through".

No mystery. Garcia Bercero has said it is 'unlikely' that certain things would happen. The Tories had the option, like all EU countries to put 'the national interest first' and 'battle for Britain' against the EU bureaucrats and get the NHS exempt from the agreement. Like the French did for the audio-visual industry. But they didn't. Why? Ken Clarke is warning the country about what can happen to the NHS. Or maybe Clarke is adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 519.

The NHS is 'safe in the Tories hands'. Pull the other one.
 
Which sections and which economist articles?

"Garcia Bercero would like us to believe that future challenges to the NHS would be ‘unlikely’. Yet the Slovak Republic has already lost a multi-million dollar case under similar rules to Dutch insurance company Achmea for reversing the country’s earlier (and deeply unpopular) privatisation of health insurance. Tobacco giant Philip Morris is currently using ISDS provisions to sue the Australian government for billions of dollars over its new public health law that all cigarettes must be sold in plain paper packaging. Ken Clarke MP, the minister with responsibility for TTIP, has admitted that the UK could face exactly such challenges from US health corporations if the treaty goes through".

No mystery. Garcia Bercero has said it is 'unlikely' that certain things would happen. The Tories had the option, like all EU countries to put 'the national interest first' and 'battle for Britain' against the EU bureaucrats and get the NHS exempt from the agreement. Like the French did for the audio-visual industry. But they didn't. Why? Ken Clarke is warning the country about what can happen to the NHS. Or maybe Clarke is adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 519.

The NHS is 'safe in the Tories hands'. Pull the other one.

So what you mean is that IF the NHS was privatised, like the Slovak one was, then US companies can bid for contracts the same as EU ones can? And why did the French only protect their Audio-Visual bit, cos we did that with the Ambulance service.

You mentioned GP surgeries earlier, and I asked, could US or EU companies bid for them? Cos as far as I know, they arnt private companies, they are Partnerships operating under NHS Trusts.
 
Which sections and which economist articles?

"Garcia Bercero would like us to believe that future challenges to the NHS would be ‘unlikely’. Yet the Slovak Republic has already lost a multi-million dollar case under similar rules to Dutch insurance company Achmea for reversing the country’s earlier (and deeply unpopular) privatisation of health insurance. Tobacco giant Philip Morris is currently using ISDS provisions to sue the Australian government for billions of dollars over its new public health law that all cigarettes must be sold in plain paper packaging. Ken Clarke MP, the minister with responsibility for TTIP, has admitted that the UK could face exactly such challenges from US health corporations if the treaty goes through".

No mystery. Garcia Bercero has said it is 'unlikely' that certain things would happen. The Tories had the option, like all EU countries to put 'the national interest first' and 'battle for Britain' against the EU bureaucrats and get the NHS exempt from the agreement. Like the French did for the audio-visual industry. But they didn't. Why? Ken Clarke is warning the country about what can happen to the NHS. Or maybe Clarke is adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 519.

The NHS is 'safe in the Tories hands'. Pull the other one.

I searched for the trade treaty on the site. There were a few articles from last year, nothing from this. All referred to the treaty as one about removing a whole lot of tariffs, nothing mentioned about the things you say.
 
Trust me, it seems impossible....until it actually happens and then you will be striking a different tone altogether. It just needs the right way of selling it. There is a reason why Labour went into Iraq despite mass opposition and still won re-election. Nothing is political suicide if it's packaged in the right way at the right time.

Dead right. We're being softened up right now.
 

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