The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Mrk]

Don't think I've ever claimed that "everyone is employed by morally bankrupt and scummy companies", which shows how little attention you pay to other people's posts.

My argument is that we should not pander to major companies who threaten to leave the UK if they have to pay their work force more. I have never mentioned small and medium sized companies.

By the way, this is a political debate. Let's not make it personal.

But this is where your argument gets even more ludicrous, because unless I'm missing something, it isn't only 'major companies' who don't pay their staff a living wage, it is the vast majority of companies - so what makes a major company any different?

If an SME employees 2 people and has a £20k surplus at the end of the year, you could argue that they could pay their employees more, in the same way that you can suggest a major company with 10,000 employee's who have a £2bn surplus could also pay their employee's more.

A minimum wage only works if it is the same across the board, so if you increase the minimum wage for major companies, you have to increase it for SMEs too - and that would result in many lost jobs and livelihoods, whether you like it or not.

The whole 'pandering to major companies' is a straw man argument - it would hurt the small companies most.

 

[Seanjd]

I do have some sympathy with that. Trouble is, they were so far the other way before they were privatised, they were an utter shambles. Badly run, no idea of "customers", costing a fortune to run, and highly unionised, and not in a progressive way.

And yeah, they do make a profit, but large bundles of that is lobbed back into their industries for infrastructure, research, and the like. Its not all bad mate.

Imagine if it was left to the government (of any colour), to build and maintain the mobile network, or the internet/broadband network? Wouldnt happen.

I appreciate your point about research and moving forward in particular fields. High speed internet etc is a good example. Services such as gas, though? The main 3 gas suppliers make incredible profits and continue to charge their customers more.

 

[roydo]

I appreciate your point about research and moving forward in particular fields. High speed internet etc is a good example. Services such as gas, though? The main 3 gas suppliers make incredible profits and continue to charge their customers more.

Gas supply is another one I struggle with too as it happens. And that is mainly cos I dont have mains supply, so have to have deliveries of LPG. Which until a few months back was like the wild west. You couldnt switch suppliers, well you could, but they would charge you like £5000 to "service" their gas tank ffs!

Better now though.

But I would have built 30 nuclear power stations 30 years ago. Like France did.

But thats a different discussion.

 

[Seanjd]

But this is where your argument gets even more ludicrous, because unless I'm missing something, it isn't only 'major companies' who don't pay their staff a living wage, it is the vast majority of companies - so what makes a major company any different?

If an SME employees 2 people and has a £20k surplus at the end of the year, you could argue that they could pay their employees more, in the same way that you can suggest a major company with 10,000 employee's who have a £2bn surplus could also pay their employee's more.

A minimum wage only works if it is the same across the board, so if you increase the minimum wage for major companies, you have to increase it for SMEs too - and that would result in many lost jobs and livelihoods, whether you like it or not.

The whole 'pandering to major companies' is a straw man argument - it would hurt the small companies most.

I'm arguing that the minimum wage should be higher, large company, small company and public sector. By doing this you will encourage spending. I think that many small and medium sized companies could benefit because more people will be buying their stuff, or using their services. People deserve to be paid a living wage, and if a business can't do that, then quite frankly, it's not a very good business.

 

[Seanjd]

Gas supply is another one I struggle with too as it happens. And that is mainly cos I dont have mains supply, so have to have deliveries of LPG. Which until a few months back was like the wild west. You couldnt switch suppliers, well you could, but they would charge you like £5000 to "service" their gas tank ffs!

Better now though.

But I would have built 30 nuclear power stations 30 years ago. Like France did.

But thats a different discussion.

Housing is another. There have been recent instances of the government buying huge amounts of land (Battersea?) and selling it to private companies to build houses on in the name of 'stimulating building'. The private companies then sell these houses and make large profit.

What would stop the government from building houses and selling them for the price it cost them to build them? This would be better for the buyer.

 

[roydo]

I'm arguing that the minimum wage should be higher, large company, small company and public sector. By doing this you will encourage spending. I think that many small and medium sized companies could benefit because more people will be buying their stuff, or using their services. People deserve to be paid a living wage, and if a business can't do that, then quite frankly, it's not a very good business.

Its not as simple as that though. I am no expert of the benefit system, (who is!), but someone on the minimum wage is also likely to be getting universal credit, (thats the new one, right?), housing benefit, help with school dinners, and so on.

So an increase in their wage could lead to some reduction in other stuff maybe.

 

[Del]

Housing is another. There have been recent instances of the government buying huge amounts of land (Battersea?) and selling it to private companies to build houses on in the name of 'stimulating building'. The private companies then sell these houses and make large profit.

What would stop the government from building houses and selling them for the price it cost them to build them? This would be better for the buyer.

Wouldn't work mate

 

[Seanjd]

Wouldn't work mate

Why?

 

[roydo]

Housing is another. There have been recent instances of the government buying huge amounts of land (Battersea?) and selling it to private companies to build houses on in the name of 'stimulating building'. The private companies then sell these houses and make large profit.

What would stop the government from building houses and selling them for the price it cost them to build them? This would be better for the buyer.

British house building polices have been a disgrace for decades. But no one with any balls would dare take the long view on it, (ditto Nuclear), and risk losing votes from those lucky enough to have bought a house for £4000 40 years ago.

 

[Del]

Why?

The country is running out of bricks mate

 

[roydo]

The country is running out of bricks mate

Head over to RAWK, plenty on there.

Oh sorry, mis read you.

 

[Mrk]

I'm arguing that the minimum wage should be higher, large company, small company and public sector. By doing this you will encourage spending. I think that many small and medium sized companies could benefit because more people will be buying their stuff, or using their services. People deserve to be paid a living wage, and if a business can't do that, then quite frankly, it's not a very good business.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work like that in the real world. I have the pleasure of working with some small businesses every day - businesses who only just survive on a month-by-month basis. They don't make big profits, they aren't sitting on hoards of cash and their owners aren't taking huge salaries - but if they were suddenly required to pay some of their employee's significantly more, they'd be out of business before they would even have a chance of benefiting from a stimulated economy.

Your theory also falls apart on the basis that it assumes: 1) That people will spend all of the extra money they have and B) That the money they spend will 'trickle down' to SME's.

It's so easy to sit on the sidelines and lecture businesses on how much you think they should pay their employees. I also think your suggestion that companies who can't afford to pay a living wage aren't good businesses is incredibly snobbish.

In an ideal world I'd like to see people paid more, but I can also recognise that the minimum wage is better than no wage.

 

[bring the ghost on]

They don't make big profits, they aren't sitting on hoards of cash and their owners aren't taking huge salaries - but if they were suddenly required to pay some of their employee's significantly more, they'd be out of business.

The point is here, what is an acceptable wage to earn in modern society?

There are some countries like China who pay a pittance of a minimum wage, other like Australia, Holland and France put us to shame.

It's not easy to compare countries because of different living costs, etc. It's already been mentioned in this thread the difference between London and the rest of the country.

Nonetheless, if you look at the studies, most of them conclude that poverty is rife in this country, and about half of those in poverty are from working families. This is due to wages being so low in this country. People are simply not being paid a fair wage.

It wouldn't be wise to hit SMEs with a sudden sharp increase, but by the same token, if they cannot afford to pay a person who is giving them 35 hours per week of their time, skill and effort enough money to ensure they're not in poverty (ie. a living wage), then I don't have much sympathy for their plight.

Companies do have good incentives in this country. Corporation tax is at a good level. Funding is available. The market is in a relatively strong position (relative to Europe). I don't think it's too much to ask for the people they employ to be paid a living wage. Other countries manage it, why can't we?

I think a gradual increase is achievable. For once, I think miliband is speaking a bit of sense, albeit it is largely just electioneering. We do need to drag people out of poverty, and we can't be afraid to say to businesses - you have to pay people a fair wage.

 

[ilikecheese]

Capitalism sucks...

 

[Mrk]

The point is here, what is an acceptable wage to earn in modern society?

There are some countries like China who pay a pittance of a minimum wage, other like Australia, Holland and France put us to shame.

It's not easy to compare countries because of different living costs, etc. It's already been mentioned in this thread the difference between London and the rest of the country.

Nonetheless, if you look at the studies, most of them conclude that poverty is rife in this country, and about half of those in poverty are from working families. This is due to wages being so low in this country. People are simply not being paid a fair wage.

It wouldn't be wise to hit SMEs with a sudden sharp increase, but by the same token, if they cannot afford to pay a person who is giving them 35 hours per week of their time, skill and effort enough money to ensure they're not in poverty (ie. a living wage), then I don't have much sympathy for their plight.

Companies do have good incentives in this country. Corporation tax is at a good level. Funding is available. The market is in a relatively strong position (relative to Europe). I don't think it's too much to ask for the people they employ to be paid a living wage. Other countries manage it, why can't we?

I think a gradual increase is achievable. For once, I think miliband is speaking a bit of sense, albeit it is largely just electioneering. We do need to drag people out of poverty, and we can't be afraid to say to businesses - you have to pay people a fair wage.

I find it hard to answer this, simply because I object to a 'minimum wage' in the way it is currently implemented. Every person and every family have different requirements, what would be deemed a sufficient wage for one person would not be sufficient for another so I don't see how imposing a blanket minimum wage works for everyone.