The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Seanjd]

Unless you think, like Bruce, that the people should serve the system instead of the other way around.

Have you ever read Chavs: the demonisation of the working class by Owen Jones, Clint? A must if not.

 

[bluemangroup]

Despite being a good poster on here Clint, you don't half attack the poster instead of the argument.

Shut the fudge up and accept some right royal English fist you kiwi dog botherer.

 

[Clint Planet]

Have you ever read Chavs: the demonisation of the working class by Owen Jones, Clint? A must if not.

No, but it's on my list. He's young and not always reliable, Jones, but he's smart and usually makes loads of sense.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Despite being a good poster on here Clint, you don't half attack the poster instead of the argument.

Like all good, open minded teachers should

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You don't care a jot about my pupils. They live in a different Britain to the one you inhabit, the one you speak of - They are real people with real lives; real hopes and aspirations. Theirs isn't a world of seminars, studies and reports but of scandalous poverty, abject lack of opportunity and systemic neglect. None of them has ever benefitted from your "innovation" or treating humans as a commodity. Their right to an equal chance in life has been regularly and consistently ignored by you.

You have never once come even close to standing up for them - please don't presume to do so now in a misguided attempt to score a cheap point.

But thanks all the same.

You don't half come out with some twaddle. Khan Academy videos have been viewed 300 million times. I believe MOOCs enrolled their 100 million'th student recently. Many of those completely free, top quality lessons are consumed by people with a lot less than your (below) average Brit. Maybe if your kids aren't gaining from these things is because their teacher is so bloody minded as to not want to show them anything that doesn't fit his world view?

I met the founder of Fuse School recently, it's a pity you hadn't spoken to me before hand so I could have told him what a tosser he was and how he's wasting his time. I'm due at another free event in a weeks time that is helping teach young kids to code. You probably won't want to tell your kids about it, but do please pass on a message about how useless it is and I'll be sure to let them know. It is run by Salesforce and hosted at Google though so you'd probably not be seen dead in the company of such folks.

Likewise at the NHS Innovation awards on Monday. They're just NHS workers trying to improve things, but I'll certainly let them know what you think of them, or maybe you'd like to tell Devi Shetty how the heart hospitals he's created aren't actually doing anything to help the poor.

That's my world, and it's joyfully full of people that are actually doing stuff, they're not theorizing or pontificating about how difficult things are, they're getting out there and trying things out to make a difference.

I can't recall a single post you've made in this thread that has linked to anything anyone is doing to make things better, it's just post after post about Tory this or Tory that, and I dare say, if the Tories somehow turned water into wine you'd be first on here finding something negative about them.

It would be lovely if those in education, if nowhere else, would be capable of treating things on their merits rather than judging the messenger, but that sadly seems beyond you, as anything I say seems viewed through the Dickensian lens you have built up of me.

 

[Walken]

You don't half come out with some twaddle. Khan Academy videos have been viewed 300 million times. I believe MOOCs enrolled their 100 million'th student recently. Many of those completely free, top quality lessons are consumed by people with a lot less than your (below) average Brit. Maybe if your kids aren't gaining from these things is because their teacher is so bloody minded as to not want to show them anything that doesn't fit his world view?

I met the founder of Fuse School recently, it's a pity you hadn't spoken to me before hand so I could have told him what a tosser he was and how he's wasting his time. I'm due at another free event in a weeks time that is helping teach young kids to code. You probably won't want to tell your kids about it, but do please pass on a message about how useless it is and I'll be sure to let them know. It is run by Salesforce and hosted at Google though so you'd probably not be seen dead in the company of such folks.

Likewise at the NHS Innovation awards on Monday. They're just NHS workers trying to improve things, but I'll certainly let them know what you think of them, or maybe you'd like to tell Devi Shetty how the heart hospitals he's created aren't actually doing anything to help the poor.

That's my world, and it's joyfully full of people that are actually doing stuff, they're not theorizing or pontificating about how difficult things are, they're getting out there and trying things out to make a difference.

I can't recall a single post you've made in this thread that has linked to anything anyone is doing to make things better, it's just post after post about Tory this or Tory that, and I dare say, if the Tories somehow turned water into wine you'd be first on here finding something negative about them.

It would be lovely if those in education, if nowhere else, would be capable of treating things on their merits rather than judging the messenger, but that sadly seems beyond you, as anything I say seems viewed through the Dickensian lens you have built up of me.

you do seemed quite obsessed with his job

 

[Bruce Wayne]

you do seemed quite obsessed with his job

How so? He suggested that none of the things I work with benefit any of his pupils (or seemingly anyone). I'm just saying that that is purely his choice as many other people seem to benefit perfectly well from them.

 

[Walken]

How so? He suggested that none of the things I work with benefit any of his pupils (or seemingly anyone). I'm just saying that that is purely his choice as many other people seem to benefit perfectly well from them.

that is the third post mentioning his profession, I realise you two have an ongoing battle, but why the big obsession with his job?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In the eyes of the more powerful in this country, devolve as much power as possible. It will not weaken the rich, and will give them a better excuse to blame the poor for their own downfall.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't a bit though isn't it? Centralising power is almost certain to help those in power keep their power. It seems that people want some kind of benevolent dictator who will wield power but distribute it justly. Based upon history I'm not sure how realistic that is (tempting though it does sound).

It's very interesting indeed. By creating self serving products, such as driverless cars or even self service checkouts, people are fast moving from suppliers and consumers, to consumers only. These things are invented to make our modern lives easier, when in fact, they are making our lives much more difficult. The only lives they are making easier are the few who own them.

Like Clint said, the economy will just collapse in on itself if this continues to a grande scale.

The onus on society needs to be to support its people. That's the problem with current mega companies, their onus is ultimately on making as much money for its owners as possible. This is the point I was making in previous posts regarding large companies. If we take large supermarkets and their use if self service as an example; their purpose is to replace humans in order to maximise profits. Tesco was t operating a loss before self service came into play. You can only see it going one way, and that is purely self service supermarkets manned by a couple of staff. Nobody on checkouts. This is one example which isn't good for society. It isn't providing jobs. It's turning the suppliers into the consumers. It's making the man at the top more money.

This, however, is totally unsustainable which is where @Clint Planet revolution comments come into play.

That is the crux of the argument with these things, and has been for a very long time. I mean when did Ned Ludd smash up the looms that he believed would do everyone out of a job? The question is whether the current trend is just like all of the other technological trends of the last 1000 years, or whether it's something larger and more far reaching.

I'm not sure anyone can really say with any certainty.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

that is the third post mentioning his profession, I realise you two have an ongoing battle, but why the big obsession with his job?

*shrug* I kind of imagine that there are certain professions where you have an open mind to various perspectives and can treat an idea on its merits rather than judging it on who says it. So when Clint dismisses something after guessing what it means, that doesn't really sound too good to me.

Now, of course, I've never seen Clint teach and I have no reason to doubt his abilities whatsoever, but that seems an odd way to behave to me from someone in a learning profession, where the evidence should guide you to a conclusion rather than seeking evidence to support that which you already believe to be true.

For what it's worth, I really wish we didn't have this thing going on. It isn't a whole lot of fun and I'm sure it detracts from what could be a decent thread.

 

[Walken]

*shrug* I kind of imagine that there are certain professions where you have an open mind to various perspectives and can treat an idea on its merits rather than judging it on who says it. So when Clint dismisses something after guessing what it means, that doesn't really sound too good to me.

Now, of course, I've never seen Clint teach and I have no reason to doubt his abilities whatsoever, but that seems an odd way to behave to me from someone in a learning profession, where the evidence should guide you to a conclusion rather than seeking evidence to support that which you already believe to be true.

For what it's worth, I really wish we didn't have this thing going on. It isn't a whole lot of fun and I'm sure it detracts from what could be a decent thread.

I enjoy it immensely if its any consultation, the only way you can end it is to concede defeat, and admit that your free market obsessed ways are wrong, then it's all over, you can have a nice peaceful thread

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I enjoy it immensely if its any consultation, the only way you can end it is to concede defeat, and admit that your free market obsessed ways are wrong, then it's all over, you can have a nice peaceful thread

I don't really care if things are state provided or non-state provided. Take http://www.alemhealth.com/ for instance. They're providing a means for hospitals in places like Afghanistan to access the medical expertise of specialists from around the world. That's a neat idea, and I'd like to think that it would be a neat idea regardless of whether the NHS had built it or this organisation in Dubai.

 

[Walken]

I don't really care if things are state provided or non-state provided. Take http://www.alemhealth.com/ for instance. They're providing a means for hospitals in places like Afghanistan to access the medical expertise of specialists from around the world. That's a neat idea, and I'd like to think that it would be a neat idea regardless of whether the NHS had built it or this organisation in Dubai.

regards the NHS, a lot of it comes down to trust, a mistrust of private organisations, which could possibly be overcome, but the people governing the country and in general our so called elite, the mistrust goes to such a level that it doesn't even manifest itself in anger for most people, just a sort of cynical it's the way it is attitude, whether or not these organisations would come in with a genuine attempt to improve service, for many the risk is too great, this isn't the rail networks, this is healthcare, as you now its an emotive subject.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

regards the NHS, a lot of it comes down to trust, a mistrust of private organisations, which could possibly be overcome, but the people governing the country and in general our so called elite, the mistrust goes to such a level that it doesn't even manifest itself in anger for most people, just a sort of cynical it's the way it is attitude, whether or not these organisations would come in with a genuine attempt to improve service, for many the risk is too great, this isn't the rail networks, this is healthcare, as you now its an emotive subject.

Which is a bind isn't it? We don't seem to trust politicians, and don't trust organisations either. I mean I think most people would agree that constant top down re-organisations as we had with the NHS recently are not very useful, and yet we see earlier in this thread that there is mistrust around more bottom up community led changes too.

Hypothetically, if the Tories win the election, you'd have a lot of people hating the government, yet demanding that nobody but the government should have any involvement in healthcare. That's a funny state of affairs.

 

[The Esk]

regards the NHS, a lot of it comes down to trust, a mistrust of private organisations, which could possibly be overcome, but the people governing the country and in general our so called elite, the mistrust goes to such a level that it doesn't even manifest itself in anger for most people, just a sort of cynical it's the way it is attitude, whether or not these organisations would come in with a genuine attempt to improve service, for many the risk is too great, this isn't the rail networks, this is healthcare, as you now its an emotive subject.

I think you raise a very important point here, one which is generally over-looked by politicians of all sides.

Most people, as consumers, generally have a negative view of big business. Years of poor service, exploitation and market manipulation by banks, utility companies and many large retailers coupled with from a consumer perspective very poor outcomes from for example, rail privatisation, the outsourcing of refuge collections, is it any wonder that there is a range of negative emotions ranging from hostility and fear to cynicism associated with a changes to health provision?

Perhaps if Government and large corporates engaged in real market reform in the private sector aimed at the consumer then there would be more acceptance of alternative provision?

Britian has changed so much in 30 years and almost all the old securities of the employed working class (let alone those not employed or ill or elderly) have disappeared. One of the last pillars of a caring society the NHS is seen as next in line for privatisation - is there any wonder there is resistance and fear?