The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Clint Planet]

I posted a page or so ago a comparison of the parties views on immigration, and there isn't a single mainstream party that is talking about the topic in a positive way. By far and away the most liberal are, perhaps not surprisingly, the Lib Dems. Labour appear just as right wing (socially) as the Tories, which is rather unfortunate.

Re the referendum, isn't that a little condescending towards the British public? Saying that they can't be trusted to have their say on matters.

Re the NHS, for about the 100th time, that isn't what is happening whatsoever. Will someone please read the five year plan published last autumn and tell me anywhere in that document that profiteering is mentioned whatsoever?

Welfare does appear to have been a complete balls up, but the rest of your post seems incredibly subjective. Even the property based diatribe I'm afraid. I mean I live in Labour controlled Southwark, and this is the scene just down the road from me.

You can imagine the hay that would have been made of this had it been a Tory run council. No doubt there have been mistakes made, many of them substantial ones, but lets have some facts in amidst the emotive stuff.

When you are given facts, you generally ignore them. It's no surprise that, when presented with a litany of frankly outrageous episodes involving Tory policy and how it has led to hunger and even a series of suicides (posted to refute your implication that it was inefficient civil servants that was sending people to food banks and not government policy) you chose to ignore that and become outraged instead at someone who has a bit of a dig at a government which has failed the poorest and most vulnerable in the most appalling way, overseen the richest becoming ever richer, reneged on promises, presided over a triple dip recession, continued to cover up a paedophile ring at the highest level, mysteriously delayed the Chilcott Report until after the election and failed to act in any meaningful way on a massive expenses scandal.

 

[hullefc]

Unless the consequences of not bailing out the US bank led financial meltdown of course.

Brown knew in 2002 that a US bank was on shaky ground with solvency. But he decided that he wouldn't tighten the regulatory body in this country, to make sure a UK bank was not going to go the same way as the US bank. Not the sign of an exceptional economist.

 

[daylightrobber]

Brown knew in 2002 that a US bank was on shaky ground with solvency. But he decided that he wouldn't tighten the regulatory body in this country, to make sure a UK bank was not going to go the same way as the US bank. Not the sign of an exceptional economist.

Like I said earlier, I'll trust the judgement of experts in the field.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

When you are given facts, you generally ignore them. It's no surprise that, when presented with a litany of frankly outrageous episodes involving Tory policy and how it has led to hunger and even a series of suicides (posted to refute your implication that it was inefficient civil servants that was sending people to food banks and not government policy) you chose to ignore that and become outraged instead at someone who has a bit of a dig at a government which has failed the poorest and most vulnerable in the most appalling way, overseen the richest becoming ever richer, reneged on promises, presided over a triple dip recession, continued to cover up a paedophile ring at the highest level, mysteriously delayed the Chilcott Report until after the election and failed to act in any meaningful way on a massive expenses scandal.

I'd say we're both pretty good at that The futility of these kind of debates.

 

[daylightrobber]

The Local Housing Allowance was for those in private accommodation. The Tories extended it to those in Council house and Housing Association tenants.

The idea was to try to stop private landlords ripping tenants off.

 

[hullefc]

The idea was to try to stop private landlords ripping tenants off.

You do that through rent controls. Not a penalty when you are already in a house or flat.

 

[Clint Planet]

The futility of these kind of debates.

I haven't given up yet. I'm determined to goad you into one day saying something remotely compassionate about the poor.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I haven't given up yet. I'm determined to goad you into one day saying something remotely compassionate about the poor.

One day

 

[daylightrobber]

You do that through rent controls. Not a penalty when you are already in a house or flat.

You're choosing to ignore the transition arrangements which meant that rental agreements at the time of introduction weren't affected.

Any tenant who would have received less Housing Benefit under the LHA rules than under their previous scheme had their prior eligible rent protected until their LHA figure was higher than the benefit allowed under the previous scheme. After that time their eligible rent switched to that set under the LHA rules.

The LHA was set up to assist with the cost of private rents. Indeed if the private rent was less than the LHA then the tenants got to keep the difference.

Keep spinning though.

 

[hullefc]

You're choosing to ignore the transition arrangements which meant that rental agreements at the time of introduction weren't affected. Any tenant who would have received less Housing Benefit under the LHA rules than under their previous scheme had their prior eligible rent protected until their LHA figure Was higher than the benefit allowed under the previous scheme, after that time their eligible rent switched to that set under the LHA rules.

The LHA was set up to assist with the cost of private rents. Indeed if the private rent was less than the LHA then the tenants got to keep the difference.

Keep spinning though.

Don't need to spin anything. Brown introduced the bedroom tax. And you can spin it anyway you like, but Brown's bedroom tax gave the Tories the 'justification' to extend it to council house tenants and housing association tenants. And all the heartache it has brought to people.

Just as Blair/Browns extended the dole sanctions regime introduced by the Tories, this has given the Tories the 'justification' to extend it further.

"A series of social security reviews conducted by the Conservative Government (1979–1997) led to the introduction of a ‘stricter benefit regime’ from the late 1980s and culminated in the introduction of Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) in 1996, a pivotal change which intensified monitoring of unemployed claimants’ job-seeking behaviour.

The incoming Labour Government in 1997 adopted a ‘work first’ and ‘work for all’ approach, embracing JSA’s monitoring of claimants’ job search activities, backed up by benefit sanctions in cases of non-compliance. A range of measures were also introduced to ‘make work possible’ and ‘make work pay’, including increased financial support for childcare, as well as the introduction of the National Minimum Wage, increased levels of Child Benefit, and tax credits to assist low-income families. These ‘enabling’ measures were implemented alongside an expansion in the reach of work-related conditionality to previously exempt groups, with lone parents – previously subject to ‘light’ if any conditionality – increasingly targeted (Whitworth and Griggs, 2013). Compulsory ‘Work Focused Interviews’ for lone parents on Income Support (IS) were introduced from 2001. Lone Parent Obligations (LPO), implemented from 2008, have seen an incremental reduction in the age threshold of the youngest child that enables lone parents to qualify for IS, rather than the much more conditional JSA; by 2012, this threshold had been lowered to age 5. Under LPOs, lone parents deemed able to work are treated in broadly similar terms to other JSA claimants, albeit that some LPO ‘flexibilities’ have been incorporated to recognise the responsibilities involved in caring for a child. Also in 2008, Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) was introduced to replace Incapacity Benefit (IB) and IS for sick and disabled people, with this benefit embracing more conditional elements (and the use of sanctions) for those deemed capable of ‘work-related activity’. The current UK Coalition Government has further intensified benefit conditionality".

The Tories have introduced/forced dole office managers to put pressure on staff to increase the number of individuals sanctioned. And to their eternal shame, benefit assessors have used some dubious means and deceitful excuses to sanction those receiving benefits, often very vulnerable people.

 

[daylightrobber]

Don't need to spin anything. Brown introduced the bedroom tax. And you can spin it anyway you like, but Brown's bedroom tax gave the Tories the 'justification' to extend it to council house tenants and housing association tenants. And all the heartache it has brought to people.

Just as Blair/Browns extended the dole sanctions regime introduced by the Tories, this has given the Tories the 'justification' to extend it further.

"A series of social security reviews conducted by the Conservative Government (1979–1997) led to the introduction of a ‘stricter benefit regime’ from the late 1980s and culminated in the introduction of Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) in 1996, a pivotal change which intensified monitoring of unemployed claimants’ job-seeking behaviour.

The incoming Labour Government in 1997 adopted a ‘work first’ and ‘work for all’ approach, embracing JSA’s monitoring of claimants’ job search activities, backed up by benefit sanctions in cases of non-compliance. A range of measures were also introduced to ‘make work possible’ and ‘make work pay’, including increased financial support for childcare, as well as the introduction of the National Minimum Wage, increased levels of Child Benefit, and tax credits to assist low-income families. These ‘enabling’ measures were implemented alongside an expansion in the reach of work-related conditionality to previously exempt groups, with lone parents – previously subject to ‘light’ if any conditionality – increasingly targeted (Whitworth and Griggs, 2013). Compulsory ‘Work Focused Interviews’ for lone parents on Income Support (IS) were introduced from 2001. Lone Parent Obligations (LPO), implemented from 2008, have seen an incremental reduction in the age threshold of the youngest child that enables lone parents to qualify for IS, rather than the much more conditional JSA; by 2012, this threshold had been lowered to age 5. Under LPOs, lone parents deemed able to work are treated in broadly similar terms to other JSA claimants, albeit that some LPO ‘flexibilities’ have been incorporated to recognise the responsibilities involved in caring for a child. Also in 2008, Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) was introduced to replace Incapacity Benefit (IB) and IS for sick and disabled people, with this benefit embracing more conditional elements (and the use of sanctions) for those deemed capable of ‘work-related activity’. The current UK Coalition Government has further intensified benefit conditionality".

The Tories have introduced/forced dole office managers to put pressure on staff to increase the number of individuals sanctioned. And to their eternal shame, benefit assessors have used some dubious means and deceitful excuses to sanction those receiving benefits, often very vulnerable people.

So you are arguing that introduction of a national minimum wage, alongside increased child benefit and tax credits was good, or bad?

 

[Clint Planet]

http://www.theguardian.com/business...artments-of-communities-says-new-union-leader

A lot of truth in what he says, from my perspective. Only yesterday, a mother physically attacked an SLT member at my school. Austerity is having a noticeable effect on social cohesion in the community and has placed huge strain on many families. Benefit capping has had a massive impact on many families who have had to leave more expensive parts of London for cheaper rents elsewhere or else leave the city altogether.

Already vulnerable children are having their lives turned upside down.

The hidden costs of austerity are not so easy to quantify.

 

[hullefc]

So you are arguing that introduction of a national minimum wage, alongside increased child benefit and tax credits was good, or bad?

Do let the spin about Brown being an 'exceptional economist' get in the way of some home truths about his vicious attack on the poor and vulnerable.

"Atos were far from the only private company set to rake in huge sums from Labour’s savage attack on the poor. The green paper proposed that private providers would be able to bid for any welfare-to-work service. This was based on a recommendation from David Freud, now better known as Lord Fraud, the current Tory Minister for Welfare Reform.

Except for mandatory treatment for drug users, all of these measure were eventually introduced, some by Labour and some by the Tories. Many of Iain Duncan Smith’s most vicious policies were actually first proposed by Labour.
The consequences of Labour’s welfare reforms were devastating. 52,399 benefit sanctions were inflicted on Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants in March 2010. This was twice the number from just two years earlier and more than the 51,142 sanctions handed out by the Tories in September 2014, the most recent month for which figures are available.

In March 2010 the number of people on sickness benefits who had their benefits stopped for failure to carry out ‘work related activity’ hit a high of 3,673. This is just slightly below the 3,828 sanctions handed out to this group in September 2014".

There Is No Such Thing As A Fair Benefit Sanction And They ...

The minimum wage was always set too low, and resulted in many workers not getting wage rises until their pay fell, to minimum wage levels. Tax credits allowed firms to drive down wages. A state subsidy to low pay. Many firms would tell people at an interview that they would get 16 hours because then they could claim tax credits.

 

[daylightrobber]

Do let the spin about Brown being an 'exceptional economist' get in the way of some home truths about his vicious attack on the poor and vulnerable.

"Atos were far from the only private company set to rake in huge sums from Labour’s savage attack on the poor. The green paper proposed that private providers would be able to bid for any welfare-to-work service. This was based on a recommendation from David Freud, now better known as Lord Fraud, the current Tory Minister for Welfare Reform.

Except for mandatory treatment for drug users, all of these measure were eventually introduced, some by Labour and some by the Tories. Many of Iain Duncan Smith’s most vicious policies were actually first proposed by Labour.
The consequences of Labour’s welfare reforms were devastating. 52,399 benefit sanctions were inflicted on Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants in March 2010. This was twice the number from just two years earlier and more than the 51,142 sanctions handed out by the Tories in September 2014, the most recent month for which figures are available.

In March 2010 the number of people on sickness benefits who had their benefits stopped for failure to carry out ‘work related activity’ hit a high of 3,673. This is just slightly below the 3,828 sanctions handed out to this group in September 2014".

There Is No Such Thing As A Fair Benefit Sanction And They ...

The minimum wage was always set too low, and resulted in many workers not getting wage rises until their pay fell, to minimum wage levels. Tax credits allowed firms to drive down wages. A state subsidy to low pay. Many firms would tell people at an interview that they would get 16 hours because then they could claim tax credits.

If you're going to cut and paste could you please credit the source? Credibility is key here.

 

[hullefc]

http://www.theguardian.com/business...artments-of-communities-says-new-union-leader

A lot of truth in what he says, from my perspective. Only yesterday, a mother physically attacked an SLT member at my school. Austerity is having a noticeable effect on social cohesion in the community and has placed huge strain on many families. Benefit capping has had a massive impact on many families who have had to leave more expensive parts of London for cheaper rents elsewhere or else leave the city altogether.

Already vulnerable children are having their lives turned upside down.

The hidden costs of austerity are not so easy to quantify.

More and more children are turning up at schools hungry because there is nothing in for breakfast. Austerity - the punishment for being poor and/or vulnerable and/or down on your luck.