So we should not do something that has proven to improve things for the poorest, and instead chase the unicorn of a 'fair' society instead before we do absolutely anything at all?
Lost for words.
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The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )
- Thread starter rascal
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So we should not do something that has proven to improve things for the poorest, and instead chase the unicorn of a 'fair' society instead before we do absolutely anything at all?
Lost for words.
daylightrobber
Player Valuation: £15m
daylightrobber
Player Valuation: £15m
Its people with this attitude that prevent any chance of a fair society existing. It not an unattainable goal.
It's the Tory mindset in a nutshell.
"It's too hard to achieve anyway without upsetting our paymasters, so screw 'em."
It's almost as though it's handy the poor being down there so you can continue 'fighting the good fight' on their behalf. Pretty much every project I've posted on these pages that helps them has been poo poohed because it doesn't tackle the supposed systemic injustices of life.
What is a fair society and how can that be achieved?
Are you for real? I've just shared a project that is changing the lot of the poorest, and can scale up very quickly and very cheaply. Yet that's screwing the poor. Worst troll ever you.
It's a band aid policy that would achieve nothing in the real world. The pretence of doing something without actually doing something; an activity that doesn't do anything to address the wealth gap, glass ceilings or anything. A root and branch overhaul would be required to make aspiration in the lower classes anything meaningful.
I'm not a troll at all, I'm a centrist in terms of politics. But I do recognise something - whilst socialists distrust the rich, which is the wrong mindset to have; the rich actually despise the poor.
Once again, the poor pay 8% more relative tax than the rich under this government, and in an era where hardship is getting worse and worse for the most vulnerable in our society, the Tories are ready to stick the boot in even further.
So I'm not trolling when I say the Tories effectively say "screw you" to the poor - it's a statement of fact.
daylightrobber
Player Valuation: £15m
Yep its very convenient that there are poor people in society so I feel good about my life. Do you know what, I regularly feel [Poor language removed] about it because I realise how bloody lucky I am. I worry that one day that it might be my kids or my grandkids who are down on there luck so my fight is every bit as personal as someone who only wants to 'keep it in the family'.
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1) what I shared isn't a policy (none of the projects I share are ever created by British politicians)
2) it wasn't created by a Tory, it was created by a team of Stanford academics so has absolutely naff all to do with the bloody Tories
3) it has been used in the real world and achieved tangible results
4) it's available to implement right now at very little cost
If you go back to my earlier post I linked you to the paper (which is open source) so you can read up on it all you like. I also linked to the resource page (again free to use) where people are using this right now.
Yes, I read it. This part particularly:
Whether this approach could be a practical way to raise school achievement on a large scale remains unknown.
Amazing that, isn't it? Well... not really, given it's theoretical nonsense.
Here's a paper for you that explains the bleeding obvious.
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379765941_Lacour and Tissington.pdf
The paper you links proactively blames the student for not achieving, which is horse manure. There's a poverty-based glass ceiling for academic achievement that barely needs explaining - if you don't have the resources, you're not in a fair race with the advantaged in society.
So that gap needs closing, and not through some pseudo-scientific "mindset" drivel.
The reason I call it the "typical" Tory mindset is simple - the belief that the blame for underachievement rests with the person and not the situation; this blind belief that anyone can rise from adversity if they try hard enough. Yes, some might do so, but to flagrantly ignore the socio-economic disadvantages the poorest in society have to actually attaining that achievement is ridiculous.
Are you familiar with how research generally works? Things start off small, and then if they are shown to work they're scaled up to test them on a larger scale.Thus far it hasn't been tested on a larger scale, so of course it isn't known whether it applies. How do you know whether it would? You try it.
It's like dismissing a drug in clinical trials because it hasn't been tested on a large audience.
Seeing as it seems I'm the only one proposing things for you guys to knock down. How about we switch things around and you tell me how you will create a fair society? If you can tell me how much it will cost and how long it would take, that would be great.
Haha try that out in All Saints, Kirkby, and let me know how many Oxbridge candidates you have as a result. Good luck with that! Do you think teachers now actively go out of their way and tell kids "nah, you'll never do anything, don't bother."
It is nonsense right from the offset as it doesn't deal with any problem whatsoever. Everyone knows if you have good teachers who motivate, or a school that has good facilities in a certain area, or a community/family that backs you solidly, that you'll achieve more than you didn't as your mindset is altered. That isn't research. They're trying to reinvent the wheel. It is 100% grade A nonsense.
And your defence of such nonsense is to say "come up with a fully costed manifesto of systemic reform or LOL!"? Seriously? What part of "a root and branch overhaul is needed" is hard to understand?
Do you honestly believe that anyone can achieve the same as anyone else, no matter societal upbringing, economic state and educational resource quality, on a consistent basis? You honestly think those factors have no bearing whatsoever on academic achievement?
If you DO believe that (and surely you do, you simply can't be that deluded), then if you're looking for "practical" solutions, you have to identify that the socio-economic situation of students from the disadvantaged backgrounds have to be brought closer in line with the advantaged. If that means government spending, so be it, but to hide behind an ideological "how much would it cost" defence is the archetypal Tory response.
It brings me back to my initial point - "if it costs too much and could take money out of our paymasters pockets, screw 'em."
Based on this thread it does make me wonder to be honest. I'm not asking for a fully costed manifesto, but I'm a bit bored of posting up projects that are making a difference right now, only for them to be shat on, so I thought I'd turn the tables and ask you how you'd go about building your fair society. I'd rather you didn't use generalities like root and branch overhaul. Some specifics please, and if you can have some evidence that your ideas have worked, either in trial situations or on a larger scale, that would be great
daylightrobber
Player Valuation: £15m
A fair society is one which doesn't treat the poor, the sick and the needy with contempt. It doesn't remove their support mechanisms whilst at the same time offering tax breaks to the filthy rich.
A fair society is one which prosecutes people who steal hundreds of thousands of pounds from the rest of us through tax fraud and punishes them relatively to those who commit benefit fraud.
A fair society doesn't blame the weak and needy for being where they are and it certainly doesn't make out that they are a drain on resources.
A fair society is one where the same opportunities are offered to all, regardless of creed, colour or which frigging school your parents could afford to send you to.
A fair society doesn't allow employees to exploit their workers for profit, nor does it allow corporations to put obscene profits before people
Should I continue?
It is achieved through a change in mindset, distribution of wealth (progressive taxation), coming down hard on those who take the pi$$ without giving anything back. Through rebuilding society.
"He who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a God" - Aristotle
The problem we have is that there are too many beasts who unfortunately think that they are Gods.
beautifulthing
Player Valuation: £750k
"There is no such thing as society." Lady Thatcher said it, so it must be true.
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