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The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

Who will you be voting for?

  • Tory

    Votes: 38 9.9%
  • Diet Tory (Labour)

    Votes: 132 34.3%
  • Tory Zero (Greens)

    Votes: 44 11.4%
  • Extra Tory with lemon (UKIP)

    Votes: 40 10.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 8.1%
  • Cheese on toast

    Votes: 91 23.6%

  • Total voters
    385
  • Poll closed .
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Based on this thread it does make me wonder to be honest. I'm not asking for a fully costed manifesto, but I'm a bit bored of posting up projects that are making a difference right now, only for them to be shat on, so I thought I'd turn the tables and ask you how you'd go about building your fair society. I'd rather you didn't use generalities like root and branch overhaul. Some specifics please, and if you can have some evidence that your ideas have worked, either in trial situations or on a larger scale, that would be great :)

How can I? That's the whole point isn't it - the socio-economic gap is so vast and nothing has been done, so there's no examples of practice to begin with.

What I can point out, and just did, is academic proof that poverty and lack of resource has a massive impact on educational achievement.

Poverty significantly affects the resources available to students. Due to this lack of resources, many students struggle to reach the same academic achievement levels of students not living in poverty.

So let me think... if poverty and lack of resources has such a profound impact on attainment, what oh what should be done to fix that? I wonder!

Here's another one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528798/

The incidence, depth, duration and timing of poverty all influence a child’s educational attainment, along with community characteristics and social networks.

In the above paper, look at the notes on meaningful early intervention via resource led initiatives - costed, on the ground intervention from groups with a set curriculum and attainable goals to achieve an end result.

Here's another:

http://www.cisga.org/the-impact-of-poverty-on-academic-performance/

Blaming the schools and even blaming parents or others has not overcome the stressors facing children, nor does it free them to become good learners. Many of Georgia’s children – hundreds of thousands of them – come to school lacking the support system needed for them to be successful students. It is not that these children cannot learn. Rather, the day-to-day stressors form a barrier blocking much of the good work administered by our teachers. The tragic result: thousands of students unnecessarily falling behind academically, failing, and eventually dropping out of our schools.


This highlights how blame culture for people being in the situation they are in doesn't work - active intervention does.

-------------------

So under that line, here's what I would practically do. I would raise the spending on education substantially, use it to increase phonic teaching standards in the early years, invest heavily in science education, scrap university fees for medical training to encourage desperately needed UK application into the NHS. I'd partially fund that by closing non-dom loopholes and lowering the foreign aid budget, specifically terminating assistance to Pakistan, but generally it'd require government spending - deficit or not.

I'd then lower VAT to at the very least 17.5%, take the Income Tax threshold to £15,000, and restore the 50p rate for high earners. The aim of which is to lessen the tax gap between the poor and the rich.

In an ideal world, I'd also have children starting school at six, assessed on entry as to standards at beginning, I'd abolish SATs for a more student orientated testing system upon entry to high school, instead of the school being pressured into cheating (which does happen), and have Year 10/11 dedicated to a lecture theatre/seminar style system to prepare kids adequately for the shift into university standard learning procedure.
 
A fair society is one which doesn't treat the poor, the sick and the needy with contempt. It doesn't remove their support mechanisms whilst at the same time offering tax breaks to the filthy rich.

A fair society is one which prosecutes people who steal hundreds of thousands of pounds from the rest of us through tax fraud and punishes them relatively to those who commit benefit fraud.

A fair society doesn't blame the weak and needy for being where they are and it certainly doesn't make out that they are a drain on resources.

A fair society is one where the same opportunities are offered to all, regardless of creed, colour or which frigging school your parents could afford to send you to.

A fair society doesn't allow employees to exploit their workers for profit, nor does it allow corporations to put obscene profits before people

Should I continue?

It is achieved through a change in mindset, distribution of wealth (progressive taxation), coming down hard on those who take the pi$$ without giving anything back. Through rebuilding society.

"He who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a God" - Aristotle

The problem we have is that there are too many beasts who unfortunately think that they are Gods.

I don't think anyone would argue with those things, but surely you have to accept that it is significantly harder to achieve than you suggest. I mean there have been anti-discrimination laws in place for a very long time now, yet there is still significant evidence of discrimination in the workplace (even if unintentional) on the grounds of gender, sexuality, race, age, and yes, quite probably ones network.

Of course that isn't saying that we should keep striving, but after several decades of effort on the matter of fairness in the workplace, it is still some way away.

I've been to a number of projects recently that were aimed at encouraging young girls to get into STEM related careers. Are we really saying here that those events shouldn't happen because there is still believed to be discrimination against women in those careers, just because they aren't 'systemic' interventions?

I think this almost gets to the heart of the issue, and it's something @roydo touched on yesterday. I think that society is changed by the actions of its citizens. It's at the heart of things like complexity science, yet I get this feeling that because I (we?) believe that change is best done in lots of small ways, we're seen as heartless swines, just because we'd advocating a different approach to state driven, top down initiatives.

Maybe if that simple concession could be understood there would be a little less animosity in these discussions?
 
How can I? That's the whole point isn't it - the socio-economic gap is so vast and nothing has been done, so there's no examples of practice to begin with.

What I can point out, and just did, is academic proof that poverty and lack of resource has a massive impact on educational achievement.

Poverty significantly affects the resources available to students. Due to this lack of resources, many students struggle to reach the same academic achievement levels of students not living in poverty.

So let me think... if poverty and lack of resources has such a profound impact on attainment, what oh what should be done to fix that? I wonder!

Here's another one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528798/

The incidence, depth, duration and timing of poverty all influence a child’s educational attainment, along with community characteristics and social networks.

In the above paper, look at the notes on meaningful early intervention via resource led initiatives - costed, on the ground intervention from groups with a set curriculum and attainable goals to achieve an end result.

Here's another:

http://www.cisga.org/the-impact-of-poverty-on-academic-performance/

Blaming the schools and even blaming parents or others has not overcome the stressors facing children, nor does it free them to become good learners. Many of Georgia’s children – hundreds of thousands of them – come to school lacking the support system needed for them to be successful students. It is not that these children cannot learn. Rather, the day-to-day stressors form a barrier blocking much of the good work administered by our teachers. The tragic result: thousands of students unnecessarily falling behind academically, failing, and eventually dropping out of our schools.


This highlights how blame culture for people being in the situation they are in doesn't work - active intervention does.

-------------------

So under that line, here's what I would practically do. I would raise the spending on education substantially, use it to increase phonic teaching standards in the early years, invest heavily in science education, scrap university fees for medical training to encourage desperately needed UK application into the NHS. I'd partially fund that by closing non-dom loopholes and lowering the foreign aid budget, specifically terminating assistance to Pakistan, but generally it'd require government spending - deficit or not.

I'd then lower VAT to at the very least 17.5%, take the Income Tax threshold to £15,000, and restore the 50p rate for high earners. The aim of which is to lessen the tax gap between the poor and the rich.

In an ideal world, I'd also have children starting school at six, assessed on entry as to standards at beginning, I'd abolish SATs for a more student orientated testing system upon entry to high school, instead of the school being pressured into cheating (which does happen), and have Year 10/11 dedicated to a lecture theatre/seminar style system to prepare kids adequately for the shift into university standard learning procedure.

Thank you for a considered response. I'll have a read of those papers when I get a jiffy. A book I'm just finishing that you might like (it has a similar thesis to the papers above) is Scarcity. I posted it up in the Book Club thread if you wanted to check it out.

I would just like to say that I'm certainly not blaming folks for their situation, and I don't think that's the case with folks like Carol Dweck either. All they're trying to do is see how best they can improve their current lot, given their current lot (ie without needing the systemic changes you suggest). I see smaller efforts like that working hand in hand with more systemic attempts, not opposed to them.
 
I don't think anyone would argue with those things, but surely you have to accept that it is significantly harder to achieve than you suggest. I mean there have been anti-discrimination laws in place for a very long time now, yet there is still significant evidence of discrimination in the workplace (even if unintentional) on the grounds of gender, sexuality, race, age, and yes, quite probably ones network.

Of course that isn't saying that we should keep striving, but after several decades of effort on the matter of fairness in the workplace, it is still some way away.

I've been to a number of projects recently that were aimed at encouraging young girls to get into STEM related careers. Are we really saying here that those events shouldn't happen because there is still believed to be discrimination against women in those careers, just because they aren't 'systemic' interventions?

I think this almost gets to the heart of the issue, and it's something @roydo touched on yesterday. I think that society is changed by the actions of its citizens. It's at the heart of things like complexity science, yet I get this feeling that because I (we?) believe that change is best done in lots of small ways, we're seen as heartless swines, just because we'd advocating a different approach to state driven, top down initiatives.

Maybe if that simple concession could be understood there would be a little less animosity in these discussions?

Are you really suggesting that it would take decades to treat the impoverished with the same dignity and respect that every law abiding citizen of this nation is entitled to? Laws could be passed today (election process not withstanding) that would ensure those who screw our tax system don't. Why should anyone in this country have to use a food bank, when there are other with so much money that they can employ some one to hide it from the tax man?
 

You still would though, eh.......

181775.jpg
no the bitch , well ok really suppose i would;)
 
The same Russell Brand who encourages not to vote.
On LBC at 10am today with James O'Brien discussing this interview RB has over a million young followers on Y TUBE they jammed the switchboards consensus was they were never going to vote , but after EM having the guts to interview RB they will now vote for Labour out of respect to him debating, and listening to RB!
Ed has upset the media DC can like Clarkson, so what's the difference? - it was a big gamble for EM, but it has made the news it propels him into a future PM who will take on the likes of RB if you like him or not - he has more guts than the toffee nosed DC!
 


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