The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Jxg]

Their policies suggest otherwise.

North Korea refers to itself as democratic.

And the Green party says it isn't socialist, and Labour doesn't say it is neo-socialist, and the Conservatives say they are conservative (not central)...

I think if you actually take the time to look at their policies, UKIP are libertarian.

Well if they call themselves something, who are we to disagree?

Until they are proven otherwise, your statement is ironically true.

They really aren't liberal in any sense of the word.

Liberal =/= Libertarian

Not the most intelligent of responses, mate.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect our government to recognise that, in truth, as long as there is inequality in the world, a section of the poorer people will take enormous personal risks to try to improve their lot (their children, of course, will almost certainly not have been part of the decision making process) and enter western European countries. Once we've accepted that, we must inevitably accept that some people (including children) will die in their attempts. Surely, any decent country would do something to try to prevent these deaths. It's not like we're actually letting them in!

That was more of a reponse to that lad, "if you believe in compassion for others so much then do something about it, otherwise you can't really complain."

However, thanks for thinking of a non-satirical response. We give out foreign aid. It is terribly inefficient for our boats and helicopters to be out in the Med helping to save migrants. It wastes money, hurting our economy. It wastes fuel, hurting the environment. If we absolutely must help these people then I'd rather we just paid a sum to countries along the Mediterranean to contribute to their rescue budget. However, I do believe that if people are going from Country A to Country B and we're 1/3 of the globe away, the rescue attempts should be between countries in that area. It would be better if we spent the time and resources helping people around us first and then others. Like on an aeroplane, secure your own oxygen mask before helping others.

 

[Mrk]

UKIP are libertarian. You could compare them better to the Libertarian party.

Oh god, this is so wrong it hurts. They are anything BUT libertarian.

 

[Mrk]

Liberal =/= Libertarian

This is also wrong.

You're wrong.

Stop being wrong.

 

[Blue 1]

Their policies suggest otherwise.

North Korea refers to itself as democratic.

And the Green party says it isn't socialist, and Labour doesn't say it is neo-socialist, and the Conservatives say they are conservative (not central)...

You're undermining your own argument there.

And what is this neo-socialism you speak of?

 

[Jxg]

Oh god, this is so wrong it hurts. They are anything BUT libertarian.

This is also wrong.

You're wrong.

Stop being wrong.

All I see is you stating that I'm wrong but not actually posting any proof that I'm wrong.

You're wrong. How about that?


Edit: Your gross misinterpretation of libertarianism annoyed me so much that I decided to Google "libertarianism v liberalism". I can find no source which does not compare the distinct differences between the two ideologies. Feel free to try it yourself.

You're undermining your own argument there.

And what is this neo-socialism you speak of?

My point is that if you're accepting every other party as what they say they are, yet you're blinding rejecting UKIP as libertarian even though you likely know nothing of their policies and are basing your judgement off of their EU policy (which, in itself is the essence of libertarian), then you're making a mistake. Labour aren't socialist in the sense that they're the early stages of communism, but they are in the sense that their social and economic policies are very socialist (ergo, neo-socialist, "new socialist")

 

[EverBlue86]

Who cares what UKIP are ffs, this is the problem with politics in this country the people are told by the media to attack the new kids on the block the same way FFP is used to keep the established Man Utds and real madrids of this world to spend big but not your city's or psg's

UKIP= swivel eyed loons
Greens= tree hugging lunatics
SNP= bitter Scots

Whilst the big 3 continue to take the P out of us all. WAKE UP!

 

[Mrk]

All I see is you stating that I'm wrong but not actually posting any proof that I'm wrong.

You're wrong. How about that?

Err, you're the one who made the assertion that they are Libertarian, so surely you should back that up with some facts?

But I'm more than happy to oblige:

A party that supports/speaks out in favour of the following can not be described as Libertarian:

• Banning the Burkha (the right to wear what one wants)
• Capping immigration (free movement of capital and labour)
• Opposes same sex marriage (very progressive)
• Supporting nationalised healthcare
• Proposing a super tax on luxury goods (more communist than Libertarian)
• Attacks multiculturalism (i.e. promoting one national culture/identity)

UKIP are a socially conservative party, nothing more, nothing less.

And as for the Liberal =/= Libertarian bit - that just shows a basic lack of understanding of what Libertarianism is - you can't be a Libertarian without being a Liberal.

 

[Blue 1]

My point is that if you're accepting every other party as what they say they are, yet you're blinding rejecting UKIP as libertarian even though you likely know nothing of their policies and are basing your judgement off of their EU policy (which, in itself is libertarian) then you're making a mistake. Labour aren't socialist in the sense that they're the early stages of communism, but they are in the sense that their social and economic policies are very socialist (ergo, neo-socialist, "new socialist")

Think MrK has answered for me tbh.

Pretty amazing that my politics are pretty much diametrically opposed to his and you've managed to make us agree on something for what must be the first time ever.

 

[Coach]

UNICEF reporting that more than one in four children in the UK are now living in poverty – and the number is rising sharply because of the Government’s harsh austerity measure.



1:52 to 2:04 is shameful.

From the UNICEF report

The absolute number of children living in severe material deprivation in the 30 European countries analysed was 11.1 million in 2012 –1.6 million more than in 2008. This trend is the result of a net effect that includes substantial decreases (more than 300,000 fewer deprived children in Germany and Poland) and unprecedented increases in four countries (Greece, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom).i i Almost half of the severely materially deprived children (44 per cent) in 2012 lived in three countries: Italy (16 per cent), Romania (14 per cent) and the United Kingdom (14 per cent).

 

[Tree13]

UNICEF reporting that more than one in four children in the UK are now living in poverty – and the number is rising sharply because of the Government’s harsh austerity measure.



1:52 to 2:04 is shameful.

From the UNICEF report

The people responsible, first and foremost, for any child's living conditions are that child's parents. The government is not, and should not be, responsible for raising children. The stats are saddening, yes: but do you not think people should give some strong thought to their own circumstances before choosing to have children?

Before you insist that the increase is solely due to changes in circumstance for households who already had children, please consider the birth rate in this country. And don't bother with the compassion angle unless you donated half your salary this month to Amnesty International.

 

[Jxg]

Err, you're the one who made the assertion that they are Libertarian, so surely you should back that up with some facts?

But I'm more than happy to oblige:

A party that supports/speaks out in favour of the following can not be described as Libertarian:

• Banning the Burkha (the right to wear what one wants)
• Capping immigration (free movement of capital and labour)
• Opposes same sex marriage (very progressive)
• Supporting nationalised healthcare
• Proposing a super tax on luxury goods (more communist than Libertarian)
• Attacks multiculturalism (i.e. promoting one national culture/identity)

UKIP are a socially conservative party, nothing more, nothing less.

And as for the Liberal =/= Libertarian bit - that just shows a basic lack of understanding of what Libertarianism is - you can't be a Libertarian without being a Liberal.

I made a statement, you disagreed blindly. If you disagree, it's your job to prove me wrong.

Leaving the EU allows us to trade freely with the rest of the world. This is libertarian.

It also allows for more equal immigration based on worth to the country, not having to blindly accept anyone from Europe and thus result in restrictions on the numbers from other parts of the world. The current immigration policy, weighed massively in favour of European immigration, is not libertarian. To end it and shift the policy based on the free market's need for labour is libertarian.

UKIP do not oppose same-sex marriage, nor do they have a policy on banning the Burkha (a simple Google search will tell you this, yet you're just regurgitating anti-racist assumptions of the party). Their stances are libertarian.

Multiculturalism is not a part of the libertarian ideology. It is not libertarian.

The NHS is a fundamental part of the UK and any party would be foolish to privatise it. UKIP's tax on the super rich for luxury goods is about as non-libertarian as they get, but when the vast majority of their policies follow suit with the libertarian ideology then they're going to be classified as part of it. You're always going to get exceptions with each party. (i.e. the Conservatives legalising same-sex marriage when an actual conservative would oppose it).

Libertarianism is not Liberalism and the fact that you've failed to provide any evidence to the contrary (especially seeing as you've tried to provide "evidence" (I use this term loosely as the majority of your points were incorrect) elsewhere) suggests that you know full well that you know you've made an incorrect statement and are simply trying to repeat it ad infinitum to get it across.

 

[Clint Planet]

"The gap is not closing - many will suffer lifelong consequences."

I've said it before and I'll say it again - poverty is a political decision. I'll also repeat: all children have a right to an equal chance in life and we are not doing anywhere near enough to ensure this happens. UKIP, the EU and immigration are red herrings - the greatest challenge to "our" way of life lies within, not without. We should be striving to create a modern, egalitarian, meritocratic society which provides equality of opportunity to all. Nobody should be left behind; no child penalised at birth for their social circumstances; no body of people should be stigmatised; everyone shoulf be treated with respect and helped accordingly as required rather than be demonised. Instead, we accept crooked career politicians feathering their beds and fall for the rallying cries of UKIP and the EDL, blaming foreigners and Islam for our woes.

No wonder Farage is always laughing.

 

[Jxg]

Think MrK has answered for me tbh.

Pretty amazing that my politics are pretty much diametrically opposed to his and you've managed to make us agree on something for what must be the first time ever.

MrK hasn't replied to that paragraph at all. If you honestly think he has and you're not going to reply yourself then kindly take your hat and move to another table.

 

[Blue 1]

MrK hasn't replied to that paragraph at all. If you honestly think he has and you're not going to reply yourself then kindly take your hat and move to another table.

He's told you why UKIP aren't a libertarian party, which is what I also told you. None of your subsequent answers hold water, although UKIP did recently reverse their "burkha ban" policy.

 

[Jxg]

"The gap is not closing - many will suffer lifelong consequences."

I've said it before and I'll say it again - poverty is a political decision. I'll also repeat: all children have a right to an equal chance in life and we are not doing anywhere near enough to ensure this happens. UKIP, the EU and immigration are red herrings - the greatest challenge to "our" way of life lies within, not without. We should be striving to create a modern, egalitarian, meritocratic society which provides equality of opportunity to all. Nobody should be left behind; no child penalised at birth for their social circumstances; no body of people should be stigmatised; everyone shoulf be treated with respect and helped accordingly as required rather than be demonised. Instead, we accept crooked career politicians feathering their beds and fall for the rallying cries of UKIP and the EDL, blaming foreigners and Islam for our woes.

No wonder Farage is always laughing.

What you're describing is known as a utopia and is impossible to achieve due to the differing political views of people. The only possible way to reach such a situation is through the mass indoctrination of the young in school and there are only certain disgusting regimes that do that (Fascist Italy, the USSR, Communist China and the NSDAP).