The David Moyes debate

[Cookachoo]

We got beat yesterday because Liverpool have better players than Everton because they can spend proper money and when it matters they can use X number of gears , because we have a very very weak chairman our bench was inferior to there's, ( we only had plan A) if we could have brought Bellamy on instead 60k average players like Coleman we may have won, Roberto Martinez would do nothing to change that IMO

I disagree. I'm of the thinking that (Barcelona aside as they are an inhuman machine) any 11 players can beat any other 11 players with the right organisation, motivation and the right tactics on the managers part. We lacked that yesterday. I wholeheartedly agree that their team has more quality and more consistency across the park, but the gap in quality isn't epic. They are the better team but not so much that we should fall to pieces the way we did. Looking back to the chances that Carroll missed and Maxi's miss at the end, 5-1 wouldn't have flattered them based on our second half performance, i'm thankful we weren't disgraced.

Yesterday, a less inept manager would've taken more of a risk, more of a gamble in going forward as opposed to sitting on a lead for an hour, which is suicide in any game let alone a semi final against your biggest rivals.

In terms of managers with a similar record to Moyes, (aside from his recent blemish across the park) Roy Hodgson did something arguably as miraculous at Fulham guiding them from the depths of the league to a European Final and stability. And i think had Liverpool not come calling, they'd probably still be there or thereabouts in the top 8. Brought in solid signings like Hangeland, Dempsey, Schwarzer and Zamora and then made them look world beaters.

Brendan Rogers or Roberto Martinez have both done brilliantly, stubbornly with an attractive brand of Football and are widely respected. They also have an eye for a player. If you look to the lower leagues (where we took a gamble on Moyes) the likes of Nigel Adkins and Brian McDermott would be two to look at for their achievements in recent seasons, and two that will no doubt be showcasing their skills in the Premier League next season. Lambert has also done very well at Norwich. And the very underrated Alan Pardew has finally brought some stability to Newcastle. After bringing Reading up, guiding West Ham to cup finals, he's done a Moyes-esque job, just not at one club!.

There's not only Moyes working well under financial constraints. And as i said earlier, his overall record is no better than OK when he's been given the money. I think he's done brilliantly to get us where we are, i just think from here on we need a change. He's taken us as far as he can in my eyes.

 

[Cookachoo]

Listen to what i'am about to say mate it's simple as you make it, all the biggest clubs in Europe AC Milan, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid , Chelsea, Inter Milan, Manchester United, and now City are all the best team's and have success because they spend money on big international based players, the top 4 in this country are the top 4 for a reason mate, Money nothing else

Money comes from success though (Sheikhs and Russki billionaires aside). Its not all about money, if that was the case then we might as well give up now. Arsenal seldom spunk money on big buys and always find themselves up there. Newcastle's have done very well too without spending the earth. Strictly speaking, if we hadn't fudged up when we finished 4th and had qualified for the Champions League, i think we would be looking at a very different team now.

From a business perspective as well as a Footballing one, we've missed the boat so many times. Moyes has had money, whether it was from selling a key player or not and he's not spent it wisely. As much as a favourite as Fellaini is, can we say he was a good buy for the £15m? Has his value increased if we were to sell him today? Has the team come on leaps and bounds with him there? I don't think we can. And the same can be said for Bily, Heitinga, Yakubu. Players we fought so hard to keep, such as Jagielka, would we have been better off taking the £10-15m?. We hung on to Pienaar till we only ended up getting £3m for him. Poor business decisions have a knock on effect to the Football side, and vice versa.

 

[kenada_blue]

I disagree. I'm of the thinking that (Barcelona aside as they are an inhuman machine) any 11 players can beat any other 11 players with the right organisation, motivation and the right tactics on the managers part. We lacked that yesterday. I wholeheartedly agree that their team has more quality and more consistency across the park, but the gap in quality isn't epic. They are the better team but not so much that we should fall to pieces the way we did. Looking back to the chances that Carroll missed and Maxi's miss at the end, 5-1 wouldn't have flattered them based on our second half performance, i'm thankful we weren't disgraced.Yesterday, a less inept manager would've taken more of a risk, more of a gamble in going forward as opposed to sitting on a lead for an hour, which is suicide in any game let alone a semi final against your biggest rivals.In terms of managers with a similar record to Moyes, (aside from his recent blemish across the park) Roy Hodgson did something arguably as miraculous at Fulham guiding them from the depths of the league to a European Final and stability. And i think had Liverpool not come calling, they'd probably still be there or thereabouts in the top 8. Brought in solid signings like Hangeland, Dempsey, Schwarzer and Zamora and then made them look world beaters.Brendan Rogers or Roberto Martinez have both done brilliantly, stubbornly with an attractive brand of Football and are widely respected. They also have an eye for a player. If you look to the lower leagues (where we took a gamble on Moyes) the likes of Nigel Adkins and Brian McDermott would be two to look at for their achievements in recent seasons, and two that will no doubt be showcasing their skills in the Premier League next season. Lambert has also done very well at Norwich. And the very underrated Alan Pardew has finally brought some stability to Newcastle. After bringing Reading up, guiding West Ham to cup finals, he's done a Moyes-esque job, just not at one club!. There's not only Moyes working well under financial constraints. And as i said earlier, his overall record is no better than OK when he's been given the money. I think he's done brilliantly to get us where we are, i just think from here on we need a change. He's taken us as far as he can in my eyes.

Adding to that I made a few points a few months back that Big Sam did a similar thing with Bolton and spent less - a promotion, a final, top ten finishes, and Europe before leaving to try and "win something" The problem is the ideal of spending money to win things. That's not the be all and end all, it helps but citeh have spent half a billion so far to win 1 FA cup. There's a lot to be said for a mentality and a philosophy of a team, as well as being shrewed in the transfer market. Moyes is not the first or last to do it

 

[Xavi]

Money comes from success though (Sheikhs and Russki billionaires aside). Its not all about money, if that was the case then we might as well give up now. Arsenal seldom spunk money on big buys and always find themselves up there. Newcastle's have done very well too without spending the earth. Strictly speaking, if we hadn't fudged up when we finished 4th and had qualified for the Champions League, i think we would be looking at a very different team now.

From a business perspective as well as a Footballing one, we've missed the boat so many times. Moyes has had money, whether it was from selling a key player or not and he's not spent it wisely. As much as a favourite as Fellaini is, can we say he was a good buy for the £15m? Has his value increased if we were to sell him today? Has the team come on leaps and bounds with him there? I don't think we can. And the same can be said for Bily, Heitinga, Yakubu. Players we fought so hard to keep, such as Jagielka, would we have been better off taking the £10-15m?. We hung on to Pienaar till we only ended up getting £3m for him. Poor business decisions have a knock on effect to the Football side, and vice versa.

Well we should just give up then mate because it is 90% about money did you not read my points properly^, all the biggest clubs in the world have very comfortable owners, Newcastle have done well for less than 1 season, come back and tell me the same in 5 seasons of them playing in the champions league because under Mike Ashley's philosophy me and you both know deep down that won't happen, because of 1 thing ..... Money

 

[kenada_blue]

Money comes from success though (Sheikhs and Russki billionaires aside). Its not all about money, if that was the case then we might as well give up now. Arsenal seldom spunk money on big buys and always find themselves up there. Newcastle's have done very well too without spending the earth. Strictly speaking, if we hadn't fudged up when we finished 4th and had qualified for the Champions League, i think we would be looking at a very different team now. From a business perspective as well as a Footballing one, we've missed the boat so many times. Moyes has had money, whether it was from selling a key player or not and he's not spent it wisely. As much as a favourite as Fellaini is, can we say he was a good buy for the £15m? Has his value increased if we were to sell him today? Has the team come on leaps and bounds with him there? I don't think we can. And the same can be said for Bily, Heitinga, Yakubu. Players we fought so hard to keep, such as Jagielka, would we have been better off taking the £10-15m?. We hung on to Pienaar till we only ended up getting £3m for him. Poor business decisions have a knock on effect to the Football side, and vice versa.

Big Joe royal is not a big fan of fellaini. Says he doesn't score or create enough as a midfielder which got me thinking....he has a point. So who would interested in fellaini?

 

[Goat]

Big Joe royal is not a big fan of fellaini. Says he doesn't score or create enough as a midfielder which got me thinking....he has a point. So who would interested in fellaini?

Well then big Joe Royle clearly doesnt have a clue.

Fellaini is a DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, he breaks play up, tracks players, hes not a playmaker.

As to who would be interested, im fairly sure every team in the World.

 

[nsno-chris]

Listen to what i'am about to say mate it's simple as you make it, all the biggest clubs in Europe AC Milan, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid , Chelsea, Inter Milan, Manchester United, and now City are all the best team's and have success because they spend money on big international based players, the top 4 in this country are the top 4 for a reason mate, Money nothing else

Don't patronise me lad; youre talking ****e. Money is money, whether it comes from selling a super star every 3 years and reinvesting it or having a sugar daddy to fund you; net spend, gross spend who ****ing cares, Moyes has had money and wasted a fair bit of it. Johnny H took the brunt of it for a few years, getting bought and played everywhere except is fav position because Moyes has his favourites; as soon as Jags gets injured Johnny is in and guess what, he's looked like a ****ing world class centre back because he ****ing is one.

If Moyes had a clue about tactics we may be going to Wembley again in a couple of weeks, but he **** it yesterday the ****ing melt, another performance against the red ****e and another useless managerial performance

 

[Cookachoo]

Big Joe royal is not a big fan of fellaini. Says he doesn't score or create enough as a midfielder which got me thinking....he has a point. So who would interested in fellaini?

I'll be brutally honest, I don't rate him. I've been slated on here in the past for saying it. I just think for a club in our position we need more for our buck and at £15m I don't imagine we'd break even if we sold him now, thats my opinion. I don't think he scores enough or creates enough (given he has been shifted back and forth) and defensively speaking, I don't think he's mobile enough to be considered a top DM. He's a threat from set pieces and and his physical attributes are great (not counting the barnet). But from a Footballing perspective, one Marseille turn aside, I don't think we've seen enough for £15.5m.

But lets not turn this into a Felli debate. I just feel its a myth that Moyes has this outstanding record in the transfer market. He's found a few gems, granted but then so have most managers in their time. Overall, its not an embarassment, but he's not done as well as i'dve hoped when he's had a bit of cash to play with. Again something you could probably label most managers with.

I'm genuinely not anti-Moyes, I do like him, I just feel a change in the not too distant future is justified.

 

[nsno-chris]

Well then big Joe Royle clearly doesnt have a clue.

Fellaini is a DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, he breaks play up, tracks players, hes not a playmaker.
As to who would be interested, im fairly sure every team in the World.

Don't forget he also Moyes' plan B when the **** is hitting the fan. 'Oh no i cant influence play from the sideline, i know what I'll do, i'll swap Fellaini and Cahill around that'll work!!!'

 

[Number_25]

Don't forget he also Moyes' plan B when the **** is hitting the fan. 'Oh no i cant influence play from the sideline, i know what I'll do, i'll swap Fellaini and Cahill around that'll work!!!'

Cahill was absolutely spent after 60 or so minutes. Still looked a handful though.

 

[Dom1878]

Moyes is with his dad at the United match preparing for United (obviously)

 

[Brennan]

Looked pretty miserable, at least he's straight back on the job but he'll have one hell of a task trying to motivate the players for what is usually a bumming at Old Trafford next week.

 

[bflefc]

Listen to what i'am about to say mate it's simple as you make it, all the biggest clubs in Europe AC Milan, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid , Chelsea, Inter Milan, Manchester United, and now City are all the best team's and have success because they spend money on big international based players, the top 4 in this country are the top 4 for a reason mate, Money nothing else

Fella, you're entitled to your opinion just as much to the next man. I just happen to think you're deluded in your blind faith towards Moyes, or your all-inclusive blame towards Kenright/the board.

Yesterday was sod all to do about money. Sod all. Come kick-off time yesterday, it was Us v Them. Our chance to rid ourselves of years of misery, of bitternesss and of failure when it mattered. We owed it to them, big time.

I don't know how old/young you are, but anyone who was there in the eighties and suffered the Milk Cup and 2 FA Cup Finals will also have recognised that this was our best opportunity in our lifetime to get one over them when it mattered. They are ****e this season, simple as that. Their team is dire, they were on the rack confidence/run of form-wise, and all the ingredients were in place to take them on. Of course, form goes out of the window for any derby - but this should have mattered more to us, we had a lifetime of reasons to spur us on and let the form book be acted out on this occasion.

What we saw was a totally abject performance, from a side who I believe are capable of matching that shower - at least. On current form etc, we had absolutely no reason to fear them and should have gone for the jugular. They probably expected us to, and dare I go so far as to profer that they were bricking it as they thought their number was up at long last?

Lack of money blah blah - it in no way justifies nor excuses what that total beaut did yesterday. And it's not the first time. He continually does it. And he's paid £3 million a year. It's a disgrace - and I'm of the opinion that it's as equally disgraceful that some fellow Blues are still backing him.

History repeated itself yesterday. Also His-Story repeated itself. Money and the backing of the board didnt matter yesterday. Liverpoool have spunked a shed load on garbage and we were up against them yesterday and on paper, on form and on desire we SHOULD have been the favourites.

As soon as he set his defensive stall out - once again - we lost. There is only one person on this planet to take the blame for that crime. I for one won't ever forgive him, and I will not rest until he is shown the revolving door on Goodison Road.

 

[benfargin81]

if Moyes left, Id like to see us get Slaven Bilic, hes a manager who I think would wanna try his hand at club level

 

[kenada_blue]

Well then big Joe Royle clearly doesnt have a clue.

Fellaini is a DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER, he breaks play up, tracks players, hes not a playmaker.

As to who would be interested, im fairly sure every team in the World.

But he has Gibson behind him now. Surely a DM just beasts and doesn't need cover, Essien, Parker for eg dont.

Its just something that made me think.