The EU deal

[daylightrobber]

I know the history. Go and patronize someone else.

If you knew your history, you would know that German citizens knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters. Reports, in newspapers and magazines all over the country were phases in a public process of desensitisation.

Learn some history you ignorant twunt.

 

[roydo]

Lads, this is a really good thread, and also pretty informative. But can we swerve the ifs, whats, and maybes of who did and didnt know about the Holocaust. It adds little to the current debate.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

What was the vote on Germany inviting unlimited immigration into the EU. What was the vote on Merkel offering Turkey a bribe to hold back immigrants. What was the vote on doing a deal with Turkey for visa free access ?...........

Fair points...

 

[Cypher]

If you knew your history, you would know that German citizens knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters. Reports, in newspapers and magazines all over the country were phases in a public process of desensitisation.

Learn some history you ignorant twunt.

That's just nonsense. That's the view put forward by the book Backing Hitler. However even the leadership of the Nazis nevermind everyone else didn't know the plan was to massacre them all until 1941 because there wasn't a plan. There's a letter from Himler rejecting the plan to exterminate the jews in favor of relocation saying it would be "un-German" but the change of that decision later became one of practicality since deportation was no longer feasible. To say that this was the plan all along and that the German people also knowingly both went along with it and in fact supported it is just wrong. There's a difference between antisemitism, forced deportation and genocide.

Edit - Sorry didn't see that roydo. Let's leave it there. After all I said was it was debatable.

 

[magicjuan]

Policy is formed through proposals and negotiations, and voted on by elected members. There are no dictators.

Which in impolite terms is coralled, coerced, influenced or acquired. Which considering the deterioration of good intentions within a policy so soon after enactment and the benefits of the remainder go only one way, to profiteers.

It has a veneer of democracy and a theoretical democracy in the way this country has, with the legislative so far detached from the people as to be insignificant.

 

[magicjuan]

*Scratches head, rolls eyes and exhales sharply*

Ok mate...Google "Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring" or just plain & simple "Eugenics".

A british thing originally nonetheless....

 

[magicjuan]

I know the history. Go and patronize someone else.

The final solution didn't start until 1941 and was classified.

That's a bit disingenuous, the foundations were laid many years before, those determined jnferior were identified from the beginning and along the path extermination was taking place. The terminology came later, but you can't go to 'holocaust' overnight from a standing start.

Apologies, didn't see request before posting, no more references to holocaust stuff.

 

[Groucho]

That's a bit disingenuous, the foundations were laid many years before, those determined jnferior were identified from the beginning and along the path extermination was taking place. The terminology came later, but you can't go to 'holocaust' overnight from a standing start.

Apologies, didn't see request before posting, no more references to holocaust stuff.

Ok.

As @roydo said above, let's not turn this in to a holocaust discussion thread.

 

[dandydan]

Reminder to take brexit scaremongering by "economists" with a pinch of salt.

 

[Jamiednm]

Voting to remain is akin to a Turkey voting for Christmas.

Also, a vote to remain isn't a vote for the status quo. We hold little to no influence in the EU (and never have done). As more countries join, the more diluted our already small influence gets.

Europe is a mess economically, facing generational problems including the influx of African and Middle East immigrants, mass unemployment, a constantly stagnant single currency and the rise of extreme parties across the continent due to the total disregard for the views of the native people of Europe by Merkel and the unelected commissioners like Junker.

The EU GDP hasn't moved in 10 years, while every other continent on Earth has grown - some regions exponentially in that time. It is absolutely foolish to intrinsically bind ourselves to a failed project that accounts for a small percentage of the global population, especially in the modern world where it as as easy to do business with a company in New Zealand as it is to do business with France (actually, easier due to shared language and common law).

 

[Jamiednm]

The conduct of the remain campaign has been disgraceful, plucking figures from the air and presenting them as fact to scare voters. The £4300 figure that it is supposedly going to cost us all per year is sheer fantasy, a figure plucked from the air.

The richest countries in Europe, Switzerland and Norway aren't EU members. They enjoy much more democratic governance than anyone in the EU, and are crucially unbound by mass regulation. They trade freely and very successfully with the rest of the world - a market outside the EU of 6.5 billion people.

They have some elements of freedom of movement in their trade agreements with the EU, but they are also much smaller countries than us. The UK is the rest of the EUs largest export partner by far. If they didn't offer a favourable trade agreement - and quick, it will cause a larger crisis in the EU than it would here. Politicians wont have the chance of dragging their heels over a deal because, as always, market forces and industry will dictate what has to happen. In the event of Brexit, the chairmen of Merc, BMW and Audi will be on the phone to Merkel within minutes.

 

[Clint Planet]

I went to a DiEM25 (Democracy in Europe Movement) rally in London on Saturday to see Yannis Varufakis, Owen Jones, Caroline Lucas and others speak, the basic message being that workers' rights are under threat from a Brexit, that "sovereignty" is a smoke and mirrors trick of the Brexiteers which misleadingly implies that ordinary people will somehow benefit from this regaining of "sovereignty," that the Leave campaign have lost the economic argument so are now resorting to the politics of fear and that the people of the UK will be better off staying in fighting to democratise the EU.

Reject the politics of fear and xenophobia, people. Embrace the politics of hope!

From the DiEM25 Manifesto:

We call on our fellow Europeans to join us forthwith to create DiEM25 and to fight together to democratise the European Union, to end the reduction of all political relations into relations of power masquerading as merely technical decisions; to subject the EU’s bureaucracy to the will of sovereign European peoples; to dismantle the habitual domination of corporate power over the will of citizens; and to re-politicise the rules that govern our single market and common currency.

We are inspired by a Europe of Reason, Liberty, Tolerance and Imagination made possible by comprehensive Transparency, real Solidarity and authentic Democracy. We aspire to:

• A Democratic Europe in which all political authority stems from Europe’s sovereign peoples
• A Transparent Europe where all decision-making takes place under the citizens’ scrutiny
• A United Europe whose citizens have as much in common across countries as within them
• A Realistic Europe that sets itself the task of radical, yet achievable, democratic reforms
• A Decentralised Europe that uses central power to maximise democracy locally
• A Pluralist Europe of regions, ethnicities, faiths, nations, languages and cultures
• An Egalitarian Europe that celebrates difference and ends all forms of discrimination
• A Cultured Europe that harnesses its peoples’ cultural diversity
• A Social Europe that recognises freedom from exploitation as a prerequisite for true liberty
• A Productive Europe that directs investment into a shared, green prosperity
• A Sustainable Europe that lives within the planet’s means
• An Ecological Europe engaged in genuine world-wide green transition
• A Creative Europe that releases the innovative powers of its citizens’ imagination
• A Technological Europe pressing new technologies in the service of solidarity
• A Historically-minded Europe that seeks a bright future without hiding from its past
• An Internationalist Europe that treats non-Europeans as ends-in-themselves
• A Peaceful Europe de-escalating tensions in its neighbourhood and beyond
• An Open Europe that is alive to ideas, people and inspiration from all over the world, recognising fences and borders as signs of weakness and sources of insecurity
• A Liberated Europe where privilege, prejudice, deprivation and the threat of violence wither, allowing Europeans to be born into fewer stereotypical roles, to enjoy even chances to develop their potential, and to be free to choose more of their partners in life, work and society.

 

[SNova]

I went to a DiEM25 (Democracy in Europe Movement) rally in London on Saturday to see Yannis Varufakis, Owen Jones, Caroline Lucas and others speak, the basic message being that workers' rights are under threat from a Brexit, that "sovereignty" is a smoke and mirrors trick of the Brexiteers which misleadingly implies that ordinary people will somehow benefit from this regaining of "sovereignty," that the Leave campaign have lost the economic argument so are now resorting to the politics of fear and that the people of the UK will be better off staying in fighting to democratise the EU.

Reject the politics of fear and xenophobia, people. Embrace the politics of hope!

From the DiEM25 Manifesto:

We call on our fellow Europeans to join us forthwith to create DiEM25 and to fight together to democratise the European Union, to end the reduction of all political relations into relations of power masquerading as merely technical decisions; to subject the EU’s bureaucracy to the will of sovereign European peoples; to dismantle the habitual domination of corporate power over the will of citizens; and to re-politicise the rules that govern our single market and common currency.

We are inspired by a Europe of Reason, Liberty, Tolerance and Imagination made possible by comprehensive Transparency, real Solidarity and authentic Democracy. We aspire to:

• A Democratic Europe in which all political authority stems from Europe’s sovereign peoples
• A Transparent Europe where all decision-making takes place under the citizens’ scrutiny
• A United Europe whose citizens have as much in common across countries as within them
• A Realistic Europe that sets itself the task of radical, yet achievable, democratic reforms
• A Decentralised Europe that uses central power to maximise democracy locally
• A Pluralist Europe of regions, ethnicities, faiths, nations, languages and cultures
• An Egalitarian Europe that celebrates difference and ends all forms of discrimination
• A Cultured Europe that harnesses its peoples’ cultural diversity
• A Social Europe that recognises freedom from exploitation as a prerequisite for true liberty
• A Productive Europe that directs investment into a shared, green prosperity
• A Sustainable Europe that lives within the planet’s means
• An Ecological Europe engaged in genuine world-wide green transition
• A Creative Europe that releases the innovative powers of its citizens’ imagination
• A Technological Europe pressing new technologies in the service of solidarity
• A Historically-minded Europe that seeks a bright future without hiding from its past
• An Internationalist Europe that treats non-Europeans as ends-in-themselves
• A Peaceful Europe de-escalating tensions in its neighbourhood and beyond
• An Open Europe that is alive to ideas, people and inspiration from all over the world, recognising fences and borders as signs of weakness and sources of insecurity
• A Liberated Europe where privilege, prejudice, deprivation and the threat of violence wither, allowing Europeans to be born into fewer stereotypical roles, to enjoy even chances to develop their potential, and to be free to choose more of their partners in life, work and society.

European reform is a pipe dream. Not that I'd want it reformed by that group anyway.

 

[Clint Planet]

UKIP slams immigrants for ‘coming over here, giving us their money’

As research by University College London showed that immigrants have made a net contribution to the economy since 2000, UKIP slammed those foreigners for treating the UK like a charity.

The study showed they had contributed more in taxes than claimed in benefits, and were less likely than to be claiming benefits in the first place than those born in Britain.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage told reporters the news was a further blow to British sensibilities, explaining that “Just because they make a net contribution to the economy doesn’t mean they make the country better.”

“Without those immigrants we Brits could look each other in the eye and say that ‘British is best’, and feel confident that we were all doing a great job.”

“But now they’ve come here and shown us to be a bunch of workshy benefit scroungers – so what are we left with to feel good about?”

“It’s these foreigners coming across here and showing us how it should be done that is bringing this country to its knees.”

“They should go back where they came from and leave us to feel good again about being mostly shitty at everything.”

Immigrants making net contribution

UKIP supporter Simon Williams said the argument was not just an economic one, but one based around his distaste at being surrounded by brown faces.

“Just because they’ve come over here, grown our economy, raised our standards of living, and made a net financial contribution to our society, doesn’t mean I’m going to suddenly enjoy being surround by people who speak funny.”

“Plus there are lots of other reasons that I can’t quite think of right now.”

 

[Clint Planet]

Conservatives putting huge strain on public services, warn immigrants

Immigrants working in the public sector have warned that the Conservatives are placing an intolerable strain on public services.

With junior doctors preparing for further strikes, and government funding cuts threatening vital services, immigrants insist the UK is being overrun by swarms of Tory cuts.

“Services are struggling to cope with floods of government demands to cut local authority spending,” insisted social worker Krisztina Ionescu.


“Housing is a real issue in many areas but landlords are being given priority treatment.

“I’m not against ideologies, I’m against uncontrolled ideologies.”

A government spokesperson reacted angrily to the claims and insisted the use of words like ‘swarm’ dehumanised Conservatives.

“We’re just doing what we have to do in order to ensure we have a much, much, much better life.”