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The EU deal

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Joey66 said:
catch up with the Iplayer last week on BBC2 Jeremy Paxman a total neutral documentary on the EU parliament.the un elected upper house over paid bureaucrats in Strasburg set all the laws for 28 countries sent to the NEPS who countries elect to vote on e.g cart before the horse as impossible but just to vote on rules made by an unelected chamber total utter farce - say what you want about Ukip they are spot on with the way the EU parliament is worked right up us - they are turkeys voting for Christmas as their massive salaries will be lost if we leave a fair unbiased documentary about two unnecessary EU parliaments full of red tape maybe ok for big corporations who they will look after not for middle England or the UK!
100 million just for the running cost alone for two parliaments you do not need!
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Jeremy Paxman is about as neutral as @daylightrobber ffs, there's not such thing as a neutral journalist.
 
Whistlin' Dixie said:
Let's have it right.

You insinuated that foreign labour has a better work ethic than home-based labour. I disproved it.

Nothing to do with discrimination; although everyone's aware that parasitical agencies have - and are - recruiting exclusively from abroad, while perpetuating the myth (Like you did) that the british are feckless & workshy.
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I merely stated that a foreign labourer may have qualities that a British based employer would want. Someone who is willing to uproot from the country they were born and raised in, willing to leave their family and friends to go and work in a strange country with a different language and culture in an attempt to better their personal circumstances. Those are potentially admirable qualities.

My statement was an argument against the idea that a Romanian with basket weaving skills has absolutely no value whatsoever. Not a generalisation of the work ethic of British people as a whole.

I also said that some jobs are much harder to staff than other jobs and have far fewer applicants of sufficient standard. Thus employers end up relying upon immigrant workers to help make up the shortfall. Nothing to do with feckless or workshy nationalities, just numbers.

I'm well aware that there are a huge number of scurrilous employment agencies that exploit current labour laws to line their own pockets. This has always been the way with a lot of temp agencys who prey on those desperate for work. I can't see that leaving the EU would suddenly see them develop a conscience. I feel there's an argument to be had that making it harder to employ foreign work would lead to an increase in the number of illegal workers who's exploitation would be much greater and would cost immoral employees much, much less.

I think the problem with this referendum is that both options have potential advantages but both options also present problems. Everybody attaches a different amount of weight to each potential problem and it becomes a very personal choice. I personally believe in freedom of labour movement and others don't. I don't believe that the Human Rights Act or work time directives are a bad thing.

Every aspect has flaws and loopholes as with all things but I'd rather Britain be a part of any future debate on it. There are elements of corruption, selfishness and avarice in every level of political organisation from parish councils through Central Government and onto the world stage. The EU is no different but I hope that it also has many who are genuinely in it for the right reasons.
 
Muggins said:
Clint can you give me your view on the EU in or out..?

I genuinely don't know what to vote for so am taking all opinions into consideration...
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I think the EU is massively flawed but then so is the political system in the UK. I think that a post-brexit UK would suit the right more than the left. The ruling class more than the man in the street. Workers' rights would become more under attack outside the EU. I reject the idea that EU "directives" make the UK A worse place to live. I trust "Europe" more than I do the USA. I Think that we in the West have a moral duty to help the refugees of the wars that we perpetrate in our own interests.

On Saturday, I went to a rally featuring Owen Jones, Caroline Lucas and Yannis Varufakis, amongst others, the basic idea of which was that leaving would definitely be detrimental to British citizens' lot and so we should stay in and fight to make the EU more accountable.

I have signed up to DiEM25 and will vote and campaign to remain.

https://diem25.org
 

Clint Planet said:
I think the EU is massively flawed but then so is the political system in the UK. I think that a post-brexit UK would suit the right more than the left. The ruling class more than the man in the street. Workers' rights would become more under attack outside the EU. I reject the idea that EU "directives" make the UK A worse place to live. I trust "Europe" more than I do the USA. I Think that we in the West have a moral duty to help the refugees of the wars that we perpetrate in our own interests.

On Saturday, I went to a rally featuring Owen Jones, Caroline Lucas and Yannis Varufakis, amongst others, the basic idea of which was that leaving would definitely be detrimental to British citizens' lot and so we should stay in and fight to make the EU more accountable.

I have signed up to DiEM25 and will vote and campaign to remain.

https://diem25.org
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Good luck with that fight then Clint........
 
Democratic legitimacy in this country is poor at best. The civil service is unelected. Our head of state is unelected. The House of Lords is unelected. While in the EU, they have the Council of Ministers, made up of democratically elected ministers, they have the European Council, which is made up of our heads of government which are elected, and in addition we elect the European Parliament directly in the form of MEP's. The commission is equal to our civil service, if you want it to be elected then we should have our civil service elected as well. So on this basis, there little or no evidence to suggest a huge democratic deficit in Europe, sure it is not perfect, but our institutions here in the UK are far from democratic or perfect. On a point of consistency, if you are going to advocate a leave position based upon this so called democratic deficit idea, then you should want to leave the UK, too.
 
peteblue said:
Of course they will promise to spend the money on whatever sounds good. They are politicians and they all do it. But you can do an awful lot of good with between £5,000million and £8,000million whatever it may be.......
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Like cutting taxes for the rich you mean?
 
Blue 1 said:
Democratic legitimacy in this country is poor at best. The civil service is unelected. Our head of state is unelected. The House of Lords is unelected. While in the EU, they have the Council of Ministers, made up of democratically elected ministers, they have the European Council, which is made up of our heads of government which are elected, and in addition we elect the European Parliament directly in the form of MEP's. The commission is equal to our civil service, if you want it to be elected then we should have our civil service elected as well. So on this basis, there little or no evidence to suggest a huge democratic deficit in Europe, sure it is not perfect, but our institutions here in the UK are far from democratic or perfect. On a point of consistency, if you are going to advocate a leave position based upon this so called democratic deficit idea, then you should want to leave the UK, too.
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If only.
 

Clint Planet said:
I think the EU is massively flawed but then so is the political system in the UK. I think that a post-brexit UK would suit the right more than the left. The ruling class more than the man in the street. Workers' rights would become more under attack outside the EU. I reject the idea that EU "directives" make the UK A worse place to live. I trust "Europe" more than I do the USA. I Think that we in the West have a moral duty to help the refugees of the wars that we perpetrate in our own interests.

On Saturday, I went to a rally featuring Owen Jones, Caroline Lucas and Yannis Varufakis, amongst others, the basic idea of which was that leaving would definitely be detrimental to British citizens' lot and so we should stay in and fight to make the EU more accountable.

I have signed up to DiEM25 and will vote and campaign to remain.

https://diem25.org
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Another one who wants Europeans to make the rules for us because we can't get our own politicians to do the right thing. And i say that as a member of the labour party.
The Germans will always do what's right for them first and everyone else comes second. Same with the french.

We need to fix our own democracy not tag along with someone else's.

And as for Europe and USA and trust I'd suggest you dig out that Peter Hitchens video on the EU I mentioned earlier today. It might enlighten you a little bit.
 

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