The EU deal

[peteblue]

Immigration controlled from all over the world is fine, on a points system not the free EU style we have now!

And this part of the really bad position the remain group are putting themselves in.......from the BBC......

"The UK could have a "fairer, more humane" immigration system that would work better for the economy if it left the EU, Leave campaigners say.
Tories Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Priti Patel, and Labour's Gisela Stuart are calling for a points-based system for all migrants coming to the UK.
They say EU free movement rules have hit wages and strained public services.
The Remain campaign said the proposal would "wreck" the UK economy and could drive up immigration.

Repeat....The Remain campaign said the proposal would "wreck" the UK economy and could drive up immigration.

It's this stupid type of argument that insults our people and will drive more into the Brexit camp.....

 

[magicjuan]

There's no such thing as a level playing field. It's good for countries to use monetary policy and corporation tax to improve their economy.

Look at Greece. What Greece needs to do is to revert back to it's own currency and lower it's corporation tax. If there wasn't the migrant problem the tourist industry and other industries would come flooding back.

"A level playing field" just plays into the hands of the wealthy countries like Germany and for the union to work it would then also require wealth transfer to poorer countries to work properly. Unfortunately how this would then work in practice is that the richer country would have control of the poorer country which essentially removes democracy from the poorer country and makes the poorer country nothing more than a province.

If it doesn't work like that and instead there's a system where Germany has essentially no more control but still pays for the poorer country then the tax burden on the German people is going to be so great it will essentially disenfranchise their workers and no one will work.

The EU is a half baked idea. That is no solution unless you are happy for the German and Northern European people to run Europe while the Southern Europeans are dragged kicking and streaming to emulate the neo-liberal Germans.

That's the project. That's what you are voting to be part of.

Firstly, I never said that a level playing field existed, secondly your interpretation of it was a capitalist view, borne out further in your post.
What I am referring to is a level playing field for ordinary people to benefit as opposed to the soundbite benefits espoused by federalists and corporatists alike that only exist on the surface but realistically benefit capitalism further than any help given to the less well off.
It is that release the chains for capital that irks me. It hasn't worked within the EU and it won't work outside of it.
The rampant supposition of deserving superiority by a minority will be the death of this world and those who chase it culpable.
Remember the situations we have been in have never ben caused by socialist approaches, every economic catadtrophe has been caused by capitalism and unfettered greed and inhumanity.

 

[Cypher]

Firstly, I never said that a level playing field existed, secondly your interpretation of it was a capitalist view, borne out further in your post.
What I am referring to is a level playing field for ordinary people to benefit as opposed to the soundbite benefits espoused by federalists and corporatists alike that only exist on the surface but realistically benefit capitalism further than any help given to the less well off.
It is that release the chains for capital that irks me. It hasn't worked within the EU and it won't work outside of it.
The rampant supposition of deserving superiority by a minority will be the death of this world and those who chase it culpable.
Remember the situations we have been in have never ben caused by socialist approaches, every economic catadtrophe has been caused by capitalism and unfettered greed and inhumanity.

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

It's driven up house prices and put a strain on public services.

This. Rents have gone up exponentially. From the welfare bill, housing takes a far bigger proportion than dole. It's the 4th largest expenditure of the welfare sector. And all that goes to landlords. Every. Single. Cent.

Landlords who'll gladly flout housing and H&S rules by having gangs of Eastern Europeans living 5 to a room, or 20 to a house and paying them £3 p/h (after rent) thereby driving down wages in the process too.

Take away the opportunity to exploit these people by not allowing them in wholesale to work in lower paid work, and you..,

A) Decrease the demand for housing, and therefore lower both rental costs and demand for new builds on green spaces

B) Decrease the expenditure on housing benefit(s)

C) Force unscrupulous businesses/agencies & the like to employ from within, while paying the going rate.

D) Decrease the crime rate (More people employed = less crime), and

E) Raise more in taxes through people being employed, while easing the burden on the NHS, law enforcement, welfare expenditure etc

It's not that hard to figure out.

 

[Cypher]

This. Rents have gone up exponentially. From the welfare bill, housing takes a far bigger proportion than dole. It's the 4th largest expenditure of the welfare sector. And all that goes to landlords. Every. Single. Cent.

Landlords who'll gladly flout housing and H&S rules by having gangs of Eastern Europeans living 5 to a room, or 20 to a house and paying them £3 p/h (after rent) thereby driving down wages in the process too.

Take away the opportunity to exploit these people by not allowing them in wholesale to work in lower paid work, and you..,

A) Decrease the demand for housing, and therefore lower both rental costs and demand for new builds on green spaces

B) Decrease the expenditure on housing benefit(s)

C) Force unscrupulous businesses/agencies & the like to employ from within, while paying the going rate.

D) Decrease the crime rate (More people employed = less crime), and

E) Raise more in taxes through people being employed, while easing the burden on the NHS, law enforcement, welfare expenditure etc

It's not that hard to figure out.

Actually it might go to the landlords but the real big winners are the banks. They make a lot more in interest payments on a 400k mortgage than a 100k mortgage. That's one of the reasons why the financial elite are so in favor of immigration.

That's the reason why I say we are economic serfs. In feudal times the serfs worked the land that was owned by someone else giving the vast majority of what they made to the landlords. Now we give it to the banks.

We even give it to them through taxation to pay for housing benefits.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Actually it might go to the landlords but the real big winners are the banks. They make a lot more in interest payments on a 400k mortgage than a 100k mortgage. That's one of the reasons why the financial elite are so in favor of immigration.

That's the reason why I say we are economic serfs. In feudal times the serfs worked the land that was owned by someone else giving the vast majority of what they made to the landlords. Now we give it to the banks.

It's not altogether a question of who wins, but who loses, at the moment. The banks are going to get theirs all the same.

The eastern europeans lose out through their exploitation. The UK nationals who can't afford to buy their homes lose out not only through the high demand for housing, but seeing their wages driven down. HMRC lose out through wages being paid in lieu of rent, and the increased demand & restricted supply of housing causing exorbitant rental values which HB pays for, so the UK national pays more in tax that way.

Whereas if practices like those I described were nullified, The banks'd get theirs anyway through landlords not having the opportunity to exploit foreign workers, and having to sell some of their portfolios because of lack of demand, so people could buy at truly affordable rates, whilst being able to pay tax on their incomes as well as stamp duties and other peripheral taxes.

 

[daylightrobber]

A large part of the problem is the increase in % of the population of poorer people. It's driven up house prices and put a strain on public services.

If you want to talk about housing and what is driving up costs, I could talk all day. For the time being you can rest assured that it isn't poor people who are pushing the price of housing up. There are approximately 635,000 empty homes in England (not the UK). Nearly 11m empty homes across Europe. There are hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of other properties that could be converted into accommodation at very little expense. The housing crisis is not fueled by the poor, or immigrants. The refusal to return to the market, properties which are genuinely surplus to requirements is the issue, alongside the failure of the authorities to think outside the box.

 

[Cypher]

It's not altogether a question of who wins, but who loses, at the moment. The banks are going to get theirs all the same.

The eastern europeans lose out through their exploitation. The UK nationals who can't afford to buy their homes lose out not only through the high demand for housing, but seeing their wages driven down. HMRC lose out through wages being paid in lieu of rent, and the increased demand & restricted supply of housing causing exorbitant rental values which HB pays for, so the UK national pays more in tax that way.

Whereas if practices like those I described were nullified, The banks'd get theirs anyway through landlords not having the opportunity to exploit foreign workers, and having to sell some of their portfolios because of lack of demand, so people could buy at truly affordable rates, whilst being able to pay tax on their incomes as well as stamp duties and other peripheral taxes.

I agree with all that. The financial crisis should have showed people that system wasn't working but just like then ultimately if the banks didn't get it then they would just print the money and give it to themselves.

 

[SNova]

Immigration controlled from all over the world is fine, on a points system not the free EU style we have now!

It's got to the point where a points based system is now an extreme position. Which is just Laughable. You're racist if you don't want open borders for all!!

It should be up to British government to decide on our immigration policies. If the people vote for mass immigration they should be able to have that, but if they vote for reduced levels or indeed a stop to immigration then they should also be allowed that option.

The majority of people in this country want a points based system.

 

[Cypher]

If you want to talk about housing and what is driving up costs, I could talk all day. For the time being you can rest assured that it isn't poor people who are pushing the price of housing up. There are approximately 635,000 empty homes in England (not the UK). Nearly 11m empty homes across Europe. There are hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of other properties that could be converted into accommodation at very little expense. The housing crisis is not fueled by the poor, or immigrants. The refusal to return to the market, properties which are genuinely surplus to requirements is the issue, alongside the failure of the authorities to think outside the box.

But you are always going to have those problems. If you believe that's the issue then you are the type of person who believes politicians can find the money through "efficiency savings". It's a question of supply and demand.

 

[SNova]

But you are always going to have those problems. If you believe that's the issue then you are the type of person who believes politicians can find the money through "efficiency changes". It's a question of supply and demand.

We should reduce immigration at the same time as sorting out these problems. It's not one or the other.

Such an irritating argument. The same as the democracy one. "But the UK also has bad democracy". Okay let's campaign to sort that out once we leave the EU.

 

[Cypher]

Even the Dalai Lama says Europe has too many migrants.

 

[daylightrobber]

It's got to the point where a points based system is now an extreme position. Which is just Laughable. You're racist if you don't want open borders for all!!

It should be up to British government to decide on our immigration policies. If the people vote for mass immigration they should be able to have that, but if they vote for reduced levels or indeed a stop to immigration then they should also be allowed that option.

The majority of people in this country want a points based system.

The majority of people in this country don't know what a points based system would look like so if that genuinely is the case then it's worrying. We already have a PBS for non-EU nationals and it isn't working. The recent wage element is set to damage service and tourism in particular. The Australian system which Leave seem to be hailing as the answer will not reduce numbers. In the same way that it hasn't reduced numbers in Australia. Then again, to be fair Australia are trying to grow their population right now.

If you can be bothered to read it, the below would be quite useful for those wondering about the Australian PBS. It comes from Migration Watch............

The Points Based System in Australia – Appropriate for the UK?
Immigration System & Policy: MW 346

1. Summary

1.1 The Australian ‘Points Based System’ is increasingly mooted, notably by UKIP, as a solution to the UKs broken immigration system. This paper looks at the Australian system in detail and finds it thoroughly unsuitable for the UK:

1. Australia has achieved effective border control as well as accurate recording of arrivals and departures. These are invaluable but have very little to do with their Points Based System (PBS) whose purpose is to promote immigration, not to limit it.
2. The Australian context could hardly be more different. Many Australians believe that they have a strategic need to grow and have the space to do so. Both major parties favour increased legal migration and their PBS is a means to that end. (Public debate is mainly about how to handle asylum seekers arriving by boat.)
3. The Australian system is, in fact, extremely complex, despite covering less than 60% of skilled work migration and only around 15% of all migrants entering Australia
4. It is intended for job seekers, not employers (who have a different route for recruitment).
5. For the UK a low cap would be needed for each category with all the attendant difficulties.
6. The Australians can afford a high cap as their net immigration rate is, in proportion to their population, three times ours (240,000 per year on a population one third of the UK’s).
7. A Points Based System was introduced in the UK in 2008. In practice, it failed to limit migration. A mechanical, points based test that reduces, even eliminates, human discretion cannot cope with the complexities of immigration to the UK and has already failed once.

2. Migration to Australia

2.1 Migration to Australia is broken down by the Australian Department for Immigration and Citizenship into two distinct categories, permanent and temporary visa types.

Figure one: the different permanent and temporary visa types used in Australia



Permanent Visa Types
Skill
Family
Humanitarian

Temporary Visa Types
Students
Working Holiday
Visitors


3. Permanent Migration to Australia

3.1 The Australian Permanent Migration programme has two main components: the Migration Programme and the Humanitarian Programme. The Migration Programme accounts for the overwhelming majority of permanent migration to Australia, representing 90.5% of the total inflow into the country. The Humanitarian Programme accounts for the other 9.5%. Both programs are divided into streams, categories, and visa ‘subclasses.’

3.2 The Migration Program includes the Skilled Stream (work) and the Family Stream. Within the Migration Programme, the Skilled Stream (work) element accounts for 68% of the total, while the Family Stream accounts for the other 32%.

3.3 The Skilled Stream can be broken down into the following components:

38% Employer Sponsored (48,250) , 22% state, territory and regional nominated (28,850) and 6% for distinguished talent and business innovation and investment programme (7,460). The other 34% are Skilled Independent (43,990). The Skilled Independent and State, Territory and Regional nominated are part of the Points Based System (56%).

3.4 Of all permanent migration to Australia, only about 38% of arrivals form part of the Points Based System.

4.Skilled Migration to Australia (Skilled Stream)

For the planning year 2014/15, there are 128,550 places planned for the Skilled Stream. The number of places allocated in each year is calculated on the basis of what the department of Immigration considers Australian needs in that year. The Minister for Immigration is responsible for setting this planning level and he does so on the basis of economic, social, and demographic factors. The Government also consults widely with the State and Territory Governments.[1]

5.Points Based System

5.1 Points Based Migration governs the Independent Migration stream and regional migration. In order to take the points based test, the applicant must be under 50 years old and be competent in English- with a score of at least six in each of the four components of the IELTS test or an Occupational English Test. Some occupations might require a higher level of English. The applicant must have at least a secondary school equivalent education. The applicant must have worked in their chosen profession in their own country for at least 12 of the 24 months before the application. Having satisfied these conditions, the applicant must then pass the points based test. Applicants are awarded points based on several criteria; Age, English Language Proficiency, Level of Education, Time spent working in Australia previously and time educated in Australia previously. The more desirable the answer provided (e.g. higher than required English proficiency or being even younger than the required under 50), the higher chance of passing the test. The exact scores for the different criteria can be found here:https://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/pdf/points-tested-migration-fact-sheet.pdf

5.2 The applicants must nominate themselves for a skilled occupation from the Skilled Occupation List (SOL). The full list (which consists of 192 professions) includes such professionals as medical, engineering professionals as well as skilled occupations such as electricians and carpenters etc. It can be found here: http://www.immi.gov.au/Work/Pages/skilled-occupations-lists/sol.aspx

5.3 The applicant must submit an ‘expression of interest’ through the online application portal ‘SkillSelect’. If suitable, the applicant will then be invited, via SkillSelect to launch an application, supported by evidence. The applicant will not need to have a face to face interview.

5.4 An applicant must attain a score of 50 points in order to pass the test.

5.5 To receive an invitation, the applicant must also have had their skills assessed as being suitable for their occupation by an assessing authority for their nominated occupation. The applicant must also indicate whether the occupation for which they have applied requires them to be a member of a professional or industry organisation.

5.6 The applicant does not necessarily need to be sponsored by an employer. This route is for those skilled workers wishing to emigrate to Australia. There is another route for those being sponsored by an employer.

All applicants to Australia have to satisfy a set of health requirements. Applicants will be asked to undergo a medical examination, a chest x-ray and an HIV test. The applicant must prove that they (and any dependents) have health insurance before moving to Australia.

6.Skilled Stream Visas broken down in categories and Numbers

6.2.The 128,550 places within the Skilled Stream are divided as follows:

Figure two: Points-based skilled migration (Or Skilled Independent)


2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
44, 251 43,990[2]


Figure three: Permanent Employer Sponsored Programme

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
47,740 48, 250


Figure four: State specific and Regional Migration (Also Points Based)

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
29,769 28,850


Figure five: Business Innovation and Investment Programme

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
7,010 7,260


Figure six: Distinguished talent visas

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
200 200


7.Non-PBS Skilled Migration

7.1 People can also migrate to Australia as part of the Permanent Employer Sponsored Programme. Under this stream, migrants do not have to pass the Points Based Test. This means, for example, that there is no required level of English and that the age limit can be exceeded. This category accounts for 38% of the Skilled Stream.

7.2 Skilled work migration is capped at around 130,000 visas a year (not including dependents). All of this work migration has requirements linked to age, experience, qualification etc so could technically be described as 'points based'. However Australia officially describes only a subset of permanent work migration as part of their Points Based System. This accounts for 75,000 visas a year with the other visas being for employer sponsored migrants (like our Tier 2 General) or business investor type visas. Thus their Points Based System accounts for around 60% of skilled work migration (60K/130K) or 15% of total immigration (75K/500K).

8. Family Stream

8.1 Family Stream migrants are ‘selected on the basis of their family relationship with their sponsor in Australia.’[3] There is no test for either skills or language ability.[4] It consists of four main categories; partner, child, parent and other family members. It is allotted 32% of the Migration Programme’s spaces.

8.2 However, while there is no English Language requirement there are Health and ‘Character’ requirements. The ‘Character’ requirement is essentially that the applicants should not have a criminal record. The health requirement is that applicants take tests for HIV, Hepatitis, and TB. There is no obligation on the applicant to get health insurance. However, the dependents of students are normally required to obtain health insurance.

8.3 In 2012/13 there were 60,185 arrivals under the family stream. These were broken down into the following categories: 47 525 partner visas, 3,850 child visas, 8,925 parent visas and 585 other family visas.[5]

9. Temporary Migration

9.1 Temporary migration includes the following categories; students, working holiday, temporary work and visitors.

9.2 The numbers coming into the country on temporary visas are substantial; in the year 2013/14 levels are forecast to be as follows:

Figure seven: student migration

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
119,000 38, 400 80,600


Figure eight: Other Temporary (Working holiday, Temporary Work, Visitors, All other Temporary Visas)

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
162,000 99,300 62,700


9.3 It is worth noting there is movement between permanent and temporary migration. So a temporary migrant such as a student can switch into a permanent category like work.

10. Planning and numbers

10.1 Each year the Australian Department for Immigration sets the desired level of migration for the following year. This applies to levels of permanent migration, rather than temporary, which is not capped. For the year 2014/15, the number of places for the Migration Program is 190,000. The number of places for the Humanitarian Program is 20,000.

10.2 Under the Migration Act 1958, the number of visas is set by the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection. When that number for a class or sub class is reached for the year, no further visas are granted and applicants wait in a queue for visa grant consideration in a following year, subject to places becoming available. Applications are considered in the order of their queue date.

11. Student Migration

11.1 Student Migration to Australia is considered temporary by the Immigration Department. Each country is assigned an assessment level which is based on the calculated immigration risk posed by students from that country studying in each education sector. Each country is awarded a mark from 1-3 indicating how trusted that nationality is considered to be. Assessment Level 1 represents the lowest immigration risk, while Assessment Level 3 the highest.

11.2 There are number of requirements a successful applicant for a student visa must meet - an institution to sponsor him or her, English Language skills (level 6 in all four components of language on IELTS), sufficient maintenance funds, (Main applicants need $18,500 (£10,000) per year, partners need $6,500 (£3,600) a year, the first child $3,700 (£2000) a year and every additional child $2,800 a year. (£2000)) The applicant must have Health insurance, pass an interview process, and demonstrate a genuine intent to enter the country for the purposes of study.

12. Immigration Levels

12.1 Immigration to Australia is high. Net Immigration for the current year is forecast to be 246,000.

Figure nine: Net migration to Australia by year

Year 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004
Net Migration 237,052 193,978 175,318 278,259 298,648 238,660 186,118 148,132 141,683


12.2 Proportion of Australians born abroad

• As of 2013, 27.7% of the Australian population was born abroad (6.4 million people).
• The top ten nationalities for people born abroad in Australia were the UK, New Zealand, China, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Italy, South Africa, Malaysia and Germany.

12.3 2013/14 Forecast

Figure ten: total inflow/departures and net migration for 2013/14

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
511,500 265,100 246,300


13. The UK Points Based System

13.1 It is important to note that a Points Based System has already been attempted in the UK and it has largely failed. It contributed, for example, to the mass abuse of the student visa in the Indian Sub Continent in 2008 which forced a temporary closure of the relevant visa sections. The subsequent introduction of interviews was intended to remedy some of the weaknesses that became apparent.

14. Conclusion

14.1 An attempt at a PBS system in the UK has already been found ineffective as a means of limiting immigration and, in practice, the coalition government have been moving away from it for four years.

14.2 The situation in Australia is quite different. Both the Australian Government and the main opposition party pursue a policy of population growth in part supported by immigration. Though their system includes caps, these can be and are set at high levels. Proportionately to their population, Australia has a level of net migration three times higher than the UK.

14.3 There are also other stark differences. Australia operates a Universal Visa system, which means all non-citizens require a valid visa both to enter Australia and remain. This is markedly different to the UK, where the 500 million citizens of the EU have free movement to and from the UK. Furthermore, while Australia has some low skilled migration routes, most work migration is skilled, whereas a much larger component of economic migration to the UK is low skilled (mainly coming from the EU.)

14.4 The Australian system is highly regarded because the Australians can identify and accurately record those who arrive and depart and they have achieved effective control of their borders. Neither depends on their Points Based System. These are, of course, important objectives for the UK but we face very different geographical and political circumstances.

5 December, 2014

 

[Cypher]

Any system both needs to be enforced and needs to suit the needs of our country.

e.g. I suspect that anyone with medical qualifications would still have no problem coming.

It's not immigration that is at fault. It's the fact that the numbers are too high and it's uncontrolled. Why does this constantly have to be stated.

 

[SNova]

The majority of people in this country don't know what a points based system would look like so if that genuinely is the case then it's worrying. We already have a PBS for non-EU nationals and it isn't working. The recent wage element is set to damage service and tourism in particular. The Australian system which Leave seem to be hailing as the answer will not reduce numbers. In the same way that it hasn't reduced numbers in Australia. Then again, to be fair Australia are trying to grow their population right now.

If you can be bothered to read it, the below would be quite useful for those wondering about the Australian PBS. It comes from Migration Watch............

The Points Based System in Australia – Appropriate for the UK?
Immigration System & Policy: MW 346

1. Summary

1.1 The Australian ‘Points Based System’ is increasingly mooted, notably by UKIP, as a solution to the UKs broken immigration system. This paper looks at the Australian system in detail and finds it thoroughly unsuitable for the UK:

1. Australia has achieved effective border control as well as accurate recording of arrivals and departures. These are invaluable but have very little to do with their Points Based System (PBS) whose purpose is to promote immigration, not to limit it.
2. The Australian context could hardly be more different. Many Australians believe that they have a strategic need to grow and have the space to do so. Both major parties favour increased legal migration and their PBS is a means to that end. (Public debate is mainly about how to handle asylum seekers arriving by boat.)
3. The Australian system is, in fact, extremely complex, despite covering less than 60% of skilled work migration and only around 15% of all migrants entering Australia
4. It is intended for job seekers, not employers (who have a different route for recruitment).
5. For the UK a low cap would be needed for each category with all the attendant difficulties.
6. The Australians can afford a high cap as their net immigration rate is, in proportion to their population, three times ours (240,000 per year on a population one third of the UK’s).
7. A Points Based System was introduced in the UK in 2008. In practice, it failed to limit migration. A mechanical, points based test that reduces, even eliminates, human discretion cannot cope with the complexities of immigration to the UK and has already failed once.

2. Migration to Australia

2.1 Migration to Australia is broken down by the Australian Department for Immigration and Citizenship into two distinct categories, permanent and temporary visa types.

Figure one: the different permanent and temporary visa types used in Australia



Permanent Visa Types
Skill
Family
Humanitarian

Temporary Visa Types
Students
Working Holiday
Visitors


3. Permanent Migration to Australia

3.1 The Australian Permanent Migration programme has two main components: the Migration Programme and the Humanitarian Programme. The Migration Programme accounts for the overwhelming majority of permanent migration to Australia, representing 90.5% of the total inflow into the country. The Humanitarian Programme accounts for the other 9.5%. Both programs are divided into streams, categories, and visa ‘subclasses.’

3.2 The Migration Program includes the Skilled Stream (work) and the Family Stream. Within the Migration Programme, the Skilled Stream (work) element accounts for 68% of the total, while the Family Stream accounts for the other 32%.

3.3 The Skilled Stream can be broken down into the following components:

38% Employer Sponsored (48,250) , 22% state, territory and regional nominated (28,850) and 6% for distinguished talent and business innovation and investment programme (7,460). The other 34% are Skilled Independent (43,990). The Skilled Independent and State, Territory and Regional nominated are part of the Points Based System (56%).

3.4 Of all permanent migration to Australia, only about 38% of arrivals form part of the Points Based System.

4.Skilled Migration to Australia (Skilled Stream)

For the planning year 2014/15, there are 128,550 places planned for the Skilled Stream. The number of places allocated in each year is calculated on the basis of what the department of Immigration considers Australian needs in that year. The Minister for Immigration is responsible for setting this planning level and he does so on the basis of economic, social, and demographic factors. The Government also consults widely with the State and Territory Governments.[1]

5.Points Based System

5.1 Points Based Migration governs the Independent Migration stream and regional migration. In order to take the points based test, the applicant must be under 50 years old and be competent in English- with a score of at least six in each of the four components of the IELTS test or an Occupational English Test. Some occupations might require a higher level of English. The applicant must have at least a secondary school equivalent education. The applicant must have worked in their chosen profession in their own country for at least 12 of the 24 months before the application. Having satisfied these conditions, the applicant must then pass the points based test. Applicants are awarded points based on several criteria; Age, English Language Proficiency, Level of Education, Time spent working in Australia previously and time educated in Australia previously. The more desirable the answer provided (e.g. higher than required English proficiency or being even younger than the required under 50), the higher chance of passing the test. The exact scores for the different criteria can be found here:https://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/pdf/points-tested-migration-fact-sheet.pdf

5.2 The applicants must nominate themselves for a skilled occupation from the Skilled Occupation List (SOL). The full list (which consists of 192 professions) includes such professionals as medical, engineering professionals as well as skilled occupations such as electricians and carpenters etc. It can be found here: http://www.immi.gov.au/Work/Pages/skilled-occupations-lists/sol.aspx

5.3 The applicant must submit an ‘expression of interest’ through the online application portal ‘SkillSelect’. If suitable, the applicant will then be invited, via SkillSelect to launch an application, supported by evidence. The applicant will not need to have a face to face interview.

5.4 An applicant must attain a score of 50 points in order to pass the test.

5.5 To receive an invitation, the applicant must also have had their skills assessed as being suitable for their occupation by an assessing authority for their nominated occupation. The applicant must also indicate whether the occupation for which they have applied requires them to be a member of a professional or industry organisation.

5.6 The applicant does not necessarily need to be sponsored by an employer. This route is for those skilled workers wishing to emigrate to Australia. There is another route for those being sponsored by an employer.

All applicants to Australia have to satisfy a set of health requirements. Applicants will be asked to undergo a medical examination, a chest x-ray and an HIV test. The applicant must prove that they (and any dependents) have health insurance before moving to Australia.

6.Skilled Stream Visas broken down in categories and Numbers

6.2.The 128,550 places within the Skilled Stream are divided as follows:

Figure two: Points-based skilled migration (Or Skilled Independent)


2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
44, 251 43,990[2]


Figure three: Permanent Employer Sponsored Programme

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
47,740 48, 250


Figure four: State specific and Regional Migration (Also Points Based)

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
29,769 28,850


Figure five: Business Innovation and Investment Programme

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
7,010 7,260


Figure six: Distinguished talent visas

2012/13 arrivals 2014/15 planning level
200 200


7.Non-PBS Skilled Migration

7.1 People can also migrate to Australia as part of the Permanent Employer Sponsored Programme. Under this stream, migrants do not have to pass the Points Based Test. This means, for example, that there is no required level of English and that the age limit can be exceeded. This category accounts for 38% of the Skilled Stream.

7.2 Skilled work migration is capped at around 130,000 visas a year (not including dependents). All of this work migration has requirements linked to age, experience, qualification etc so could technically be described as 'points based'. However Australia officially describes only a subset of permanent work migration as part of their Points Based System. This accounts for 75,000 visas a year with the other visas being for employer sponsored migrants (like our Tier 2 General) or business investor type visas. Thus their Points Based System accounts for around 60% of skilled work migration (60K/130K) or 15% of total immigration (75K/500K).

8. Family Stream

8.1 Family Stream migrants are ‘selected on the basis of their family relationship with their sponsor in Australia.’[3] There is no test for either skills or language ability.[4] It consists of four main categories; partner, child, parent and other family members. It is allotted 32% of the Migration Programme’s spaces.

8.2 However, while there is no English Language requirement there are Health and ‘Character’ requirements. The ‘Character’ requirement is essentially that the applicants should not have a criminal record. The health requirement is that applicants take tests for HIV, Hepatitis, and TB. There is no obligation on the applicant to get health insurance. However, the dependents of students are normally required to obtain health insurance.

8.3 In 2012/13 there were 60,185 arrivals under the family stream. These were broken down into the following categories: 47 525 partner visas, 3,850 child visas, 8,925 parent visas and 585 other family visas.[5]

9. Temporary Migration

9.1 Temporary migration includes the following categories; students, working holiday, temporary work and visitors.

9.2 The numbers coming into the country on temporary visas are substantial; in the year 2013/14 levels are forecast to be as follows:

Figure seven: student migration

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
119,000 38, 400 80,600


Figure eight: Other Temporary (Working holiday, Temporary Work, Visitors, All other Temporary Visas)

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
162,000 99,300 62,700


9.3 It is worth noting there is movement between permanent and temporary migration. So a temporary migrant such as a student can switch into a permanent category like work.

10. Planning and numbers

10.1 Each year the Australian Department for Immigration sets the desired level of migration for the following year. This applies to levels of permanent migration, rather than temporary, which is not capped. For the year 2014/15, the number of places for the Migration Program is 190,000. The number of places for the Humanitarian Program is 20,000.

10.2 Under the Migration Act 1958, the number of visas is set by the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection. When that number for a class or sub class is reached for the year, no further visas are granted and applicants wait in a queue for visa grant consideration in a following year, subject to places becoming available. Applications are considered in the order of their queue date.

11. Student Migration

11.1 Student Migration to Australia is considered temporary by the Immigration Department. Each country is assigned an assessment level which is based on the calculated immigration risk posed by students from that country studying in each education sector. Each country is awarded a mark from 1-3 indicating how trusted that nationality is considered to be. Assessment Level 1 represents the lowest immigration risk, while Assessment Level 3 the highest.

11.2 There are number of requirements a successful applicant for a student visa must meet - an institution to sponsor him or her, English Language skills (level 6 in all four components of language on IELTS), sufficient maintenance funds, (Main applicants need $18,500 (£10,000) per year, partners need $6,500 (£3,600) a year, the first child $3,700 (£2000) a year and every additional child $2,800 a year. (£2000)) The applicant must have Health insurance, pass an interview process, and demonstrate a genuine intent to enter the country for the purposes of study.

12. Immigration Levels

12.1 Immigration to Australia is high. Net Immigration for the current year is forecast to be 246,000.

Figure nine: Net migration to Australia by year

Year 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004
Net Migration 237,052 193,978 175,318 278,259 298,648 238,660 186,118 148,132 141,683


12.2 Proportion of Australians born abroad

• As of 2013, 27.7% of the Australian population was born abroad (6.4 million people).
• The top ten nationalities for people born abroad in Australia were the UK, New Zealand, China, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Italy, South Africa, Malaysia and Germany.

12.3 2013/14 Forecast

Figure ten: total inflow/departures and net migration for 2013/14

Total Inflow Total Departures Net
511,500 265,100 246,300


13. The UK Points Based System

13.1 It is important to note that a Points Based System has already been attempted in the UK and it has largely failed. It contributed, for example, to the mass abuse of the student visa in the Indian Sub Continent in 2008 which forced a temporary closure of the relevant visa sections. The subsequent introduction of interviews was intended to remedy some of the weaknesses that became apparent.

14. Conclusion

14.1 An attempt at a PBS system in the UK has already been found ineffective as a means of limiting immigration and, in practice, the coalition government have been moving away from it for four years.

14.2 The situation in Australia is quite different. Both the Australian Government and the main opposition party pursue a policy of population growth in part supported by immigration. Though their system includes caps, these can be and are set at high levels. Proportionately to their population, Australia has a level of net migration three times higher than the UK.

14.3 There are also other stark differences. Australia operates a Universal Visa system, which means all non-citizens require a valid visa both to enter Australia and remain. This is markedly different to the UK, where the 500 million citizens of the EU have free movement to and from the UK. Furthermore, while Australia has some low skilled migration routes, most work migration is skilled, whereas a much larger component of economic migration to the UK is low skilled (mainly coming from the EU.)

14.4 The Australian system is highly regarded because the Australians can identify and accurately record those who arrive and depart and they have achieved effective control of their borders. Neither depends on their Points Based System. These are, of course, important objectives for the UK but we face very different geographical and political circumstances.

5 December, 2014

Basically what I think a lot of people want is the following: immigration levels reduced, and for immigration to be mainly skilled workers, who speak English, have no criminal record and cannot claim certain benefits until they have payed into the system for a number of years. It wouldn't have to be a carbon copy of Australia's points based system, however it's an easy reference which most people understand.

I've read the report. Migration Watch say that "The current scale of migration to the UK is 330,000 a year and is completely unsustainable." I can't find if they have given their concrete policy proposals to reduce immigration to the UK (better than the points based system could) however, I have found this:

What Can Be Done?
1. The long term objective must be to stabilise the population growth of the UK.

2. This can only be achieved by reducing net migration to between 50 and 70,000 a year, the level of the 1980s and 1990s.

3. In 2014 there were an estimated 641,000 immigrants to the UK and 323,000 emigrants giving a figure for net migration of 318,000. Reducing net migration as proposed would still allow for substantial flows each way. It would not prevent the increasing numbers of tourists and business visitors that we all want to see.

4. Some opponents claim that immigration cannot be controlled so it is fruitless to try. This is nonsense. The UK, like every other country, should be able to control immigration. Reflect for a moment on what the level of immigration from much of the developing world would be without a visa system and border controls.

5. What is needed is more effective immigration control and enforcement of immigration law. A target for net migration remains essential for focusing government policy.