The EU deal

[daylightrobber]

Look at the difference between the UK now and the UK 40 years ago. Is it really that irrational?

40 years ago my dad was able to buy a house at 30 years old doctors couldn't afford at the same age today. We had decent pensions, free university, then there's the danger to the NHS etc

40 years is a long time.

And yet we are still the 5th richest economy in the world. Once again, you are looking in all the wrong places. Have a quick gander in the BVIs, Panama, Switzerland etc. and your reasons as to why things aren't what they once were will be found. Leaving the EU isn't going to solve any of this. In my humble opinion, it will make it worse.

 

[edge]

Can you find me some figures which show that we are a house of plenty, because those that I have would suggest otherwise. If you could factor in the cost to other health providers across the EU, from looking after UK citizens it would be most useful.

And btw, holding the US up as an example of how we should run healthcare, during an argument where you are trying to convince people to leave, really isn't doing your side any favours.

cant get anything really to back it up either way look at this one from the telegraph

Under EU rules, countries should be able to claim back the costs of health care provided for foreign visitors. The figures suggest that while Britain has been quick to pay out costs for holidaymakers who fall ill abroad, it has not secured payment for most EU visitors who fall ill here.

The Government data shows that for every £18 paid out to EU countries, the UK receives £1 back for caring for their patients.

The “balance of payments deficit” means that every week, NHS budgets lose £16 million a week to fund treatment of those who come here from abroad.

The figures show that Britain spends £368m on treatment for Irish nationals, while receiving £23 million back from Ireland - a gap of £345 million. In total, £197 million is paid out to France, while just £6.3 million comes back.

The NHS fails to keep proper records of overseas visitors who come here from the EU, meaning it is impossible to know how many people come here and receive treatment.

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The figures do not include treatment for those who migrate to this country from elsewhere in Europe.

Other countries include Italy, which received £11m but returned £850,000; Greece, which collected £8m and paid back £500,000; and Spain, which received £247m while sending Britain £3.2m.

Julia Manning, chief executive of the independent research think tank 2020health said: “The fact that the NHS fails to keep proper records of overseas visitors who come here from the EU is indicative of two problems: the reluctance of staff to think of the NHS as a business that should be run as efficiently as possible, and a system which depends on governments chasing reimbursement, rather than visitors paying up front and being responsible for ensuring they are repaid.”

The Department of Health said that some of the difference could be explained by the fact that more pensioners from the UK retire overseas, yet are classed as “non-permanent residents” - meaning EU countries can claim payment for their healthcare - while fewer foreign pensioners come to the UK to retire.

EU migrants who work in the UK are classified as being resident here and qualify for free NHS health care, meaning that if they travel back to their homeland for health care they are considered UK citizens and the bill is sent back here to be picked up by the NHS.

A spokesman for the Department of Health said: “Last year we began a wholesale review of the current system to address concerns about access, cut down abuse and consider how best to ensure those who should pay do so.

"We are looking at a range of options and will set out proposals in due course.”

same paper ran with a story that it was 5 to 1 the other way around if you factor in people who have migrated to spain ect not long back.who knows ?

 

[Clint Planet]

That's about as far to "pro-remain" as you get on the BBC and that's just because it's Pax. They even forced him to drop an editorial because it was pro-Brexit otherwise you they would drop his show.

The BBC is another one of the media establishment doing what they can to keep us in.

http://gu.com/p/4tk8q?CMP

 

[peteblue]

http://gu.com/p/4tk8q?CMP

"Lord Patten, a Conservative peer and former BBC Trust chairman who is in favour of the UK staying in the EU, said it raised eyebrows when weighty figures from the Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund were given equal billing with “some backbencher no one has ever heard of”.

Sums him up really. Large ego remain supporting tosspot, who loved being governor of HK and then presiding over the BBC, has a go because 'some backbencher' disagrees. The man is the very definition of an elite who completely disregard ordinary people.........

 

[Brendan Janus]

If we came out of the EU, would we lose a Champions League place ?

 

[magicjuan]

A quote from one of the Uk union leaders....

The Today programme interviewed Mick Cash, general secretary of the RMT transport union. He said his union was opposed to EU membership because it did not think EU policies favoured workers. He told the programme:

What worries me about the debate about Europe is that everything’s about “we’d be worse off if we leave”, not better off if we stay in. And the reality is that we as a trade union have opposed being members of the EU since 1979 because we don’t think workers are benefiting from it, and what we’re seeing today with privatisations, with deregulations, the fact that you’ve got a situation where in France and Belgium as we speak workers are protesting because they’re under attack, where in Greece and Spain 50% of young people – 50% of young people – are unemployed - the EU isn’t working for us. It isn’t working for ordinary people.......

It holds an irony that so many socialist thinkers oppose the EU as being undemocratic and working for a beauraucratic corporatocracy with their wishes first and foremost, yet are lumped in with right wing neo cons and their voice drowned out by immigration rhetoric.
A lot of people are desperately trying to play party allegiance politics on a decision that has no relevance to left or right, it is, imho, about control, self determination and democracy. Played that way I think people would be better informed to make their minds up.
As it is the media discussions are heavily based and fear based by both sides.

 

[daylightrobber]

cant get anything really to back it up either way look at this one from the telegraph

Under EU rules, countries should be able to claim back the costs of health care provided for foreign visitors. The figures suggest that while Britain has been quick to pay out costs for holidaymakers who fall ill abroad, it has not secured payment for most EU visitors who fall ill here.

The Government data shows that for every £18 paid out to EU countries, the UK receives £1 back for caring for their patients.

The “balance of payments deficit” means that every week, NHS budgets lose £16 million a week to fund treatment of those who come here from abroad.

The figures show that Britain spends £368m on treatment for Irish nationals, while receiving £23 million back from Ireland - a gap of £345 million. In total, £197 million is paid out to France, while just £6.3 million comes back.

The NHS fails to keep proper records of overseas visitors who come here from the EU, meaning it is impossible to know how many people come here and receive treatment.

Related Articles

• NHS organs donated to fee-paying foreign patients
  
  24 Mar 2013
• Lack of communication across NHS is "completely shocking", says Health Secretary
  
  27 Apr 2013
• Jeremy Hunt: Immigrants are 'clogging up' UK hospitals
  
  25 Mar 2013

The figures do not include treatment for those who migrate to this country from elsewhere in Europe.

Other countries include Italy, which received £11m but returned £850,000; Greece, which collected £8m and paid back £500,000; and Spain, which received £247m while sending Britain £3.2m.

Julia Manning, chief executive of the independent research think tank 2020health said: “The fact that the NHS fails to keep proper records of overseas visitors who come here from the EU is indicative of two problems: the reluctance of staff to think of the NHS as a business that should be run as efficiently as possible, and a system which depends on governments chasing reimbursement, rather than visitors paying up front and being responsible for ensuring they are repaid.”

The Department of Health said that some of the difference could be explained by the fact that more pensioners from the UK retire overseas, yet are classed as “non-permanent residents” - meaning EU countries can claim payment for their healthcare - while fewer foreign pensioners come to the UK to retire.

EU migrants who work in the UK are classified as being resident here and qualify for free NHS health care, meaning that if they travel back to their homeland for health care they are considered UK citizens and the bill is sent back here to be picked up by the NHS.

A spokesman for the Department of Health said: “Last year we began a wholesale review of the current system to address concerns about access, cut down abuse and consider how best to ensure those who should pay do so.

"We are looking at a range of options and will set out proposals in due course.”

same paper ran with a story that it was 5 to 1 the other way around if you factor in people who have migrated to spain ect not long back.who knows ?

With all due respect that article deliberately conflates holiday makers with foreign nationals, who may of course be living, working and paying their taxes/NI here. It also suggests that the issue lies not with the people who use the service, but the way the service is managed.

 

[peteblue]

It holds an irony that so many socialist thinkers oppose the EU as being undemocratic and working for a beauraucratic corporatocracy with their wishes first and foremost, yet are lumped in with right wing neo cons and their voice drowned out by immigration rhetoric.
A lot of people are desperately trying to play party allegiance politics on a decision that has no relevance to left or right, it is, imho, about control, self determination and democracy. Played that way I think people would be better informed to make their minds up.
As it is the media discussions are heavily based and fear based by both sides.

I agree but in addition to control, self determination and democracy, you have to have an effective economy. It would be nice to see both sides being open and honest in this debate. I believe the remain 'project fear' is pushing more people to Brexit.......

 

[peteblue]

With all due respect that article deliberately conflates holiday makers with foreign nationals, who may of course be living, working and paying their taxes/NI here. It also suggests that the issue lies not with the people who use the service, but the way the service is managed.

Indeed. It would be better if the NHS or the UK Government got a grip on this.......

 

[jtl60]

I was in Paris for a few days last week. At passport control at CDG Airport in paris, the queue for NON passports was absolute chaos and enormous, whilst the queue for EU passports was very small. About the first time in my life I can remember thinking 'Thank god we are in the EU!

 

[edge]

With all due respect that article deliberately conflates holiday makers with foreign nationals, who may of course be living, working and paying their taxes/NI here. It also suggests that the issue lies not with the people who use the service, but the way the service is managed.

they had another article , saying we use 5 times more than we pay out to EU member states, i cant make head nor tail of it to be honest.

 

[daylightrobber]

Indeed. It would be better if the NHS or the UK Government got a grip on this.......

So nothing to do with the EU debate then? Glad we agree.

 

[Joey66]

Can you find me some figures which show that we are a house of plenty, because those that I have would suggest otherwise. If you could factor in the cost to other health providers across the EU, from looking after UK citizens it would be most useful.

And btw, holding the US up as an example of how we should run healthcare, during an argument where you are trying to convince people to leave, really isn't doing your side any favours.

Even the migrants on low pay get tax credit and housing benefit I notice dodgy Dave omits them from the figures, yet the pay taxes , but they also receive working benefits and free NHS!

 

[Pootsy]

We make up approximately 17% of the GDP of the EU. Germany 20%.

Yet we do not have 17% and 20% of the voting rights within the EU. Instead the remaining 26 countries have the same power as us meaning something that will be for the good of the UK, like Cane Sugar manufacturing, gets changes thrown out bu EU Council but other less profitable manufacturing industries get changes applied because more of the EU countries have that type of manufacturing.

While this is only one example it does show that while democratic, the voting is skewed. The Bureaucracy has become too complicated for small to medium sized business' to succeed.

While I see obvious plus points for remaining, the Vote is YES or NO for remain. We don't have a choice to change the hierarchy of the EU model to allow it to suit the bigger GDP input countries more.

 

[magicjuan]

I agree but in addition to control, self determination and democracy, you have to have an effective economy. It would be nice to see both sides being open and honest in this debate. I believe the remain 'project fear' is pushing more people to Brexit.......

That is part of the control. In the previous referendum it was to remain or opt out of the Common Market, a trading bloc, not the corporate behemoth that it has become and was always intended to.
A level playing field of trade is fine but when you move to commitments for membership and expansionist policy then that is just fuelling disparity.