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The EU deal

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At least one of them is beginning to look up.........

European Council president Donald Tusk has warned EU leaders in the bluntest terms that their “utopian” illusions are tearing Europe apart, and that any attempt to seize on Brexit to force through yet more integration would be a grave mistake.

In a passionate plea to Europe’s top conservatives, he accused the EU elites of living in a fool’s paradise and provoking the eurosceptic revolt now erupting in a string of countries.

“It is us who today are responsible,” he said, speaking at a conclave of Christian-Democrat and centre-right leaders in Luxembourg. “Obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.”

.....continues......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-eu-elites-for-eurosceptic-revolt-and-brexit/
 

daylightrobber said:
Not entirely........ It's conversations like this which concern me.







And as for UKIP, yes I do believe they promote xenophobia and play on people's fears of the unknown, especially in regards to immigration. Does that make every UKIP supporter racist? Of course not. However, if you fear foreigners and it is evident that many are persuaded to as they recite many falsehoods, then the belief and the person actually do become very different. The thought process can become quite detached.

Xenophobia is the fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity
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So, you quoted me about islam.... Islam is a race now?

And you've never (Either on or off this site) made observations/ been critical about whites, catholics, jews, kopites? Glass houses 'n' all that.

Back to topic. Nothing false about the door being open to 500m+ people - regardless of race, creed etc.

Nothing xenophobic about wanting to control who comes into the country. Perjoratively shrieking 'racism' at every scurrilously unfounded opportunity when the facts are inescapable makes you look rather small minded and unable to deal with the truth, like some spoilt child.

You go on about this perceived fascism from people who want immigration controlled. Well let me tell you, anti-fascism mirrors fascism. You anti fascists (I'm neither fascist nor anti-fascist) refuse to tolerate freedom of speech, you wish to dismiss as outright liars those who have legitimate concerns, you and your ilk would much rather people who are concerned about immigration were silenced in order to have your version of 'the truth' as some sort of edict - so who's the real fascist?
 
Dymak said:
It is real. It's a social construction but it is real. Social constructions are what society is built on and what differentiates us from animals. You simply cannot have a society without social constructions. If you are going to argue that nationality isn't real, then you may as well argue that money, marriage and law isn't real and discount the existence of society. However the truth is that law, money, and indeed nationality and society are all very real despite being constructs.

Furthermore, the regressive left seem to be very eager to take on collective ownership of guilt for something that our great, great, great, great grandfather's may have engaged in under the umbrella of nationality 250 years ago, but they are reluctant to acknowledge nationality and collective ownership in modern society.
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And the regressive right seems keen to take credit for things that other people's great-great grandparents did and use it to scapegoat foreigners.
 
dandydan said:
Here's one for you. Suppose we abandon nationality and all become one people. Who's rules do we live by?
Achmed thinks it's fine to throw gays off a tall building.
Bubba thinks it's his consitutional right to own a machine gun and shoot anyone who strays onto his property.
Manuel thinks torturing bulls is a sport.
Hitomi thinks whaling is a legitimate business.
Schteve thinks smackrats should be free to practice their disgusting habit.
Victor thinks killing rhinos and elephants to sell their tusks is good business.

So how do all these different cultures and attitudes fit together?
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You're confusing countries and nations.

A country is a real entity, and many correspond to these nations - but not all. Take the Kurds for example, a self-proclaimed nation without a country.

Turn it on its head and you've got countries like Yugoslavia. Few people considered themselves Yugoslav. They were Serbs, Slavs, Slovenians, Kosovans, Croats etc.

You can have an organised political community without aligning it this identity.

I've never suggested abandoning the passport and turning the world into one big playground. However, any political movement seeking sovereignty on the basis of an imagined identity is dangerous, in my opinion of course, but there are plenty of examples to support this.
 
Whistlin' Dixie said:
So, you quoted me about islam.... Islam is a race now?

And you've never (Either on or off this site) made observations/ been critical about whites, catholics, jews, kopites? Glass houses 'n' all that.

Back to topic. Nothing false about the door being open to 500m+ people - regardless of race, creed etc.

Nothing xenophobic about wanting to control who comes into the country. Perjoratively shrieking 'racism' at every scurrilously unfounded opportunity when the facts are inescapable makes you look rather small minded and unable to deal with the truth, like some spoilt child.

You go on about this perceived fascism from people who want immigration controlled. Well let me tell you, anti-fascism mirrors fascism. You anti fascists (I'm neither fascist nor anti-fascist) refuse to tolerate freedom of speech, you wish to dismiss as outright liars those who have legitimate concerns, you and your ilk would much rather people who are concerned about immigration were silenced in order to have your version of 'the truth' as some sort of edict - so who's the real fascist?
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I think you do protest too much. Bigotry is bigotry. No hiding from it.

Now if you'd like to point out to me where I've been critcal to the point of bigotry.
 

edge said:
why are people saying you are a right winger if you want out, my union The RMT want out and are anything but right wing, there are loads of support to leave articles in the Morning Star for example, they are very right wing i am sure.
Most of the so called workers rights the EU have given us were in fact predated by UK legislation.
its not a right v left battle at all.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwilrsvN2YjNAhVLfxoKHfcjD9YQFghHMAY&url=http://www.ier.org.uk/blog/eu-friend-or-foe-trade-unions&usg=AFQjCNEn020TKqInR3OrBFQsCFoZ7M_dTQ
.
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It's a right v right battle tbh.

The left has no horse in this race.
 
Bryan said:
Both
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well its up to everybody to make there own decision on why they stay or not.
A few of the things i want to leave for are,
i think its lost its way, instead of being a trading block,which i haven't a problem with , it now seems to have multiple aims beyond that.
It seems to me to be more in tune with the wishes of Multi Nationals and the markets, over those of its own peoples best interests,ie the end of collective bargaining for workers as part of the right to join for new members. denationalization of transport ect
The centralization of power away from people, towards Brussels not its member states.
Its a floored model , in that it has a one size fits all outlook,
The Debt built up within its member is a time bomb waiting to go off , despite austerity it hasn't shrunk , Portugal rejected it , look what happened with there election , then ironically they are about the only country to be coming out of recession at the moment.
The treatment of Greece.
The pushing down of wages for the low paid , due to the influx of cheap labour, and no way to control it,
in fact the more successful the UK becomes at present the worse it will get, as the majority of member states are showing little sign of growth,and its aims to enlarge will only mean we will be a target for there workers, due to the disparity in wages its only natural they will try to better themselves, i cant blame them for that, but do i want lower wages for myself and family, no thanks
Its a Market that has stagnated,look at the growth in the USA ,Canada , Australia compared to EU.
Lots of other reasons for me as well, but its basically,
I don't think we get a good deal out of it.
Its future looks bleak,and i don't want to get dragged down with it.

As for voting, its about the most important thing that will be voted on in your or mine life time,
whatever way you feel about it please vote..
 

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