The EU deal

[peteblue]

Wouldn't it be funny if it was Bryan's vote that swung the whole election.............

 

[daylightrobber]

Wouldn't it be funny if it was Bryan's vote that swung the whole election.............

Considering he's said he would vote out, no.

 

[Cypher]

This debate has some interesting tangents. The origins of Christianity to the rise of the far right in Poland.

The immigration issue comes down to demographics. The average German couple (for example) has one child. Obviously then they have an ageing population creating an inverted pyramid. To counter this they need large scale immigration to get enough younger people to balance it out and generate enough tax revenues to pay pensions, health care etc.

I remember reading several years ago that Germany needed 100mn immigrants (can't remember what the timescale was).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what the demographic will look like in 50 years.

While most voters can understand the logic behind this what they are seemingly refusing to tolerate is the policy being implemented by stealth. Perhaps if politicians were more open and honest with the electorate it would help?

The upshot of course is that if Western Europeans don't like the way things are going they should be getting their reproductive juices flowing.

I've held my end up.....

That's the argument but it's not a valid one. Birth rates go up and down all the time. With advances like computers and robots never mind the advances in medical science that put us on the cusp of being the generation that lives forever there's no reason why a fall in birth rate has to mean the end of the society.

Either way. Importing a lot of African and Middle Eastern men is like curing the disease by killing the patient. There's no reason why Muslim men who see their family as their pensions are going to pay for German men and women who have no families in their old age. They simply aren't going to vote for those social programs. It's not their culture. All it will end up doing is costing the German tax payer when they are young and healthy a fortune to support the Muslim men with no reciprocal payoff when they are older. They aren't German. They won't become German by simply moving to Germany.

When I say German of course this problem is Europe wide.

 

[Seathestars]

This debate has some interesting tangents. The origins of Christianity to the rise of the far right in Poland.

The immigration issue comes down to demographics. The average German couple (for example) has one child. Obviously then they have an ageing population creating an inverted pyramid. To counter this they need large scale immigration to get enough younger people to balance it out and generate enough tax revenues to pay pensions, health care etc.

I remember reading several years ago that Germany needed 100mn immigrants (can't remember what the timescale was).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what the demographic will look like in 50 years.

While most voters can understand the logic behind this what they are seemingly refusing to tolerate is the policy being implemented by stealth. Perhaps if politicians were more open and honest with the electorate it would help?

The upshot of course is that if Western Europeans don't like the way things are going they should be getting their reproductive juices flowing.

I've held my end up.....

I'm more than willing to go to Germany and help with their population :/
That's assuming I can strike a deal with Merkel in that I will not have to pay child support for the thousands of little half German half English offspring I produce.
I may even consider giving Merkel herself a good seeing too, but I'd demand payment up front.

 

[davids]

It is often asked what are the benefits of staying in the EU. That's not the question being asked! The referendum is asking if we should leave the EU, not stay in it. I don't think things will improve by staying but I think things will get worse by leaving.

In essence - for those of us on the left who think the EU is a deeply flawed institution the decision is "do the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the losses". My own answer, summarised here http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...g-lefts-future and here http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-greece-tory, is "no".

So, please Brexiters can you tell me what specific political and policy changes will benefit our society by leaving the EU? Oh, and you have to demonstrate this can happen, not that it is fantasy hopes and dreams. Because something happens in the EU does not axiomatically mean it won't happen outside the EU. How will things specifically improve by leaving the EU? Anyone got a list with reasons? Because all I hear from Brexit is fantasy without evidence.

 

[Cypher]

The author is a Lutheran. Not impartial. If you don't agree that there was an imposition of Christianity or don't recognise it took place then you have no business using it as an example, it happened, it is documented, research it. Amazing the influence a mother has on her powerful sons.

PBS does do things well, this series included, but as a de facto reportage? Not really.

The point of everything else you don't comprehend is that Christianity, in how you seem to interpret it, isn't the hollywood version, sanitised to appeal to the masses. The idea of some organic development just didn't happen. If you don't get that, or are a practicing christian, then I would suggest a bit of self educating and self determination.

Your example doesn't stand up. Your use of christianity doesn't stand up..

How Christianity spread is pretty well known. I didn't even think it was a question of debate. Orthodox Christianity didn't occur until the council of Nicaea 325 AD and up until that point (the article I gave) it did spread organically slowly taking over cities starting with the poor which all begun due to Paul.

Even after Nicaea the Empire still didn't impose the religion on it's subjects. Constantine was tolerant of other religions and didn't even himself get baptized until his death bed.

Being Catholic I didn't find anything the author said as questionable.

 

[Cypher]

It is often asked what are the benefits of staying in the EU. That's not the question being asked! The referendum is asking if we should leave the EU, not stay in it. I don't think things will improve by staying but I think things will get worse by leaving.

In essence - for those of us on the left who think the EU is a deeply flawed institution the decision is "do the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the losses". My own answer, summarised here http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...g-lefts-future and here http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-greece-tory, is "no".

So, please Brexiters can you tell me what specific political and policy changes will benefit our society by leaving the EU? Oh, and you have to demonstrate this can happen, not that it is fantasy hopes and dreams. Because something happens in the EU does not axiomatically mean it won't happen outside the EU. How will things specifically improve by leaving the EU? Anyone got a list with reasons? Because all I hear from Brexit is fantasy without evidence.

You should watch the debate tonight.

 

[neil999]

Wouldn't it be funny if it was Bryan's vote that swung the whole election.............

shame there wasnt a referendum on if we should have a referendum...

 

[Cypher]

It is often asked what are the benefits of staying in the EU. That's not the question being asked! The referendum is asking if we should leave the EU, not stay in it. I don't think things will improve by staying but I think things will get worse by leaving.

In essence - for those of us on the left who think the EU is a deeply flawed institution the decision is "do the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the losses". My own answer, summarised here http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...g-lefts-future and here http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-greece-tory, is "no".

So, please Brexiters can you tell me what specific political and policy changes will benefit our society by leaving the EU? Oh, and you have to demonstrate this can happen, not that it is fantasy hopes and dreams. Because something happens in the EU does not axiomatically mean it won't happen outside the EU. How will things specifically improve by leaving the EU? Anyone got a list with reasons? Because all I hear from Brexit is fantasy without evidence.

That newstateman article that 40% of the people who vote SNP are going to vote Brexit makes a bit of a nonsense that the Scots should get a referendum afterwards.

It's actually pretty disgusting that article. It basically labels anyone who votes Brexit a racist and anyone who is against migration is a racist.

I see the debating skills of the left haven't moved on much in the last 10 years. No wonder you all believe what you do. For you guys politics is like going to church.

 

[dandydan]

Nope, still no idea what you're on about.

They have some very socialist policies. higher taxes for banks, increased welfare etc.

 

[daylightrobber]

It is often asked what are the benefits of staying in the EU. That's not the question being asked! The referendum is asking if we should leave the EU, not stay in it. I don't think things will improve by staying but I think things will get worse by leaving.

In essence - for those of us on the left who think the EU is a deeply flawed institution the decision is "do the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the losses". My own answer, summarised here http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...g-lefts-future and here http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...on-greece-tory, is "no".

So, please Brexiters can you tell me what specific political and policy changes will benefit our society by leaving the EU? Oh, and you have to demonstrate this can happen, not that it is fantasy hopes and dreams. Because something happens in the EU does not axiomatically mean it won't happen outside the EU. How will things specifically improve by leaving the EU? Anyone got a list with reasons? Because all I hear from Brexit is fantasy without evidence.

They can't.

They want all the benefits of remaining in the EU without being in it. There is an arrogance that the EU will let this happen. They haven't with anyone else, they won't with the UK.

They want to spend £350m extra a week on the NHS when, even if the economy doesn't falter there isn't an extra £350m because their numbers are simply wrong.

They want to introduce an Australian style points based system for immigration, ignoring the fact that Australia has higher immigration per head of capita. They have no idea how it can work.

No one has told us how we are going to cope with all our pensioners living abroad no longer qualifying for medical treatment under EHIC system. Really not the demographic we want to recall to the UK.


They lie about Democracy, Turkey, the EU becoming a United States, about not wanting an unelected head of state, that we are loosing our identity, that they are pure blood English etc. etc. It now transpires that they are targeting Asian communities suggesting that EU immigrants are taking the place of non EU immigrants. Are they going to lower the figure or not?

It's an awful campaign.

 

[Cypher]

They can't.

They want all the benefits of remaining in the EU without being in it. There is an arrogance that the EU will let this happen. They haven't with anyone else, they won't with the UK.

They want to spend £350m extra a week on the NHS when, even if the economy doesn't falter there isn't an extra £350m because their numbers are simply wrong.

They want to introduce an Australian style points based system for immigration, ignoring the fact that Australia has higher immigration per head of capita. They have no idea how it can work.

No one has told us how we are going to cope with all our pensioners living abroad no longer qualifying for medical treatment under EHIC system. Really not the demographic we want to recall to the UK.


They lie about Democracy, Turkey, the EU becoming a United States, about not wanting an unelected head of state, that we are loosing our identity, that they are pure blood English etc. etc. It now transpires that they are targeting Asian communities suggesting that EU immigrants are taking the place of non EU immigrants. Are they going to lower the figure or not?

It's an awful campaign.

Ok we'll spend 100m instead. You have us on that point. Don't forget to keep repeating it even though most people knew it was a mistake to say the whole figure which technically wasn't a lie.

Australia is growing it's population. The UK has no need to grow it's population however it does need to hire for specific jobs like in the NHS.

If you listen to the guy on Question Time it doesn't sound like the were covered for medical treatment anyway. They can come back.

The last bit is all lies stirred up to play on people's emotions. This from the campaign who said leaving the EU would lead to World War 3 and mentioned Hitler on more than one occasion.

 

[daylightrobber]

Ok we'll spend 100m instead. You have us on that point. Don't forget to keep repeating it even though most people knew it was a mistake to say the whole figure which technically wasn't a lie.

Australia is growing it's population. The UK has no need to grow it's population however it does need to hire for specific jobs like in the NHS.

If you listen to the guy on Question Time it doesn't sound like the were covered for medical treatment anyway. They can come back.

The last bit is all lies stirred up to play on people's emotions. This from the campaign who said leaving the EU would lead to World War 3 and mentioned Hitler on more than one occasion.

Oh but it was. The rebate never leaves the UK's bank account does it?

 

[dandydan]

This debate has some interesting tangents. The origins of Christianity to the rise of the far right in Poland.

The immigration issue comes down to demographics. The average German couple (for example) has one child. Obviously then they have an ageing population creating an inverted pyramid. To counter this they need large scale immigration to get enough younger people to balance it out and generate enough tax revenues to pay pensions, health care etc.

I remember reading several years ago that Germany needed 100mn immigrants (can't remember what the timescale was).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what the demographic will look like in 50 years.

While most voters can understand the logic behind this what they are seemingly refusing to tolerate is the policy being implemented by stealth. Perhaps if politicians were more open and honest with the electorate it would help?

The upshot of course is that if Western Europeans don't like the way things are going they should be getting their reproductive juices flowing.

I've held my end up.....

Otherwise known as a ponzi scheme.

 

[Cypher]

Oh but it was. The rebate never leaves the UK's bank account does it?

The rebate can be given away by our politicians without our approval. In other words at the moment the only thing guaranteed is that we have to "pay" the EU 350m a week.

Currently we get about 200m of that back (or don't pay it at all) through the rebate and investment but as more countries join who are going to be in need more than the UK then it's more than likely that eventually we will be getting very little back and will have to pay the whole amount.

That's why the whole figure is still important.