The EU deal

[Tubey]

I'd put Cameron , Osborne and Tony Blair in with your odious scum.

Agreed.

 

[Seathestars]

We've become a hateful, arrogant little nation over the past 20 years or so, and it's telling through things like this referendum even being close, and odious scum like Boris and Farage actually enjoying mainstream support.

Add Merkel, the IMF, big banks and big business's to that list, and add the word greed, this would be nearer the truth.

 

[Tubey]

The problem with that article is that it's nonsense. It's another one that basically says we have to leave the EU on their terms and they are going to punish us for leaving.

1. They won't punish us because they don't want to give the impression they are dictatorship keeping countries against their will.
2. They won't punish us because it makes no economic sense to drive the whole of the EU into recession by essentially closing off the British market.
3. The corporate elite won't allow it.

Of course they will... it's a no brainer. The UK has to trade with the EU, but the EU should trade with the UK. The EU are in the position of power - it's 50% of our trade versus 13% of theirs.

They will have no incentive whatsoever to sweeten the divorce deal, because they know whatever they put on the table we will have to accept. And it would then send a message to any other wantaways that the price simply isn't worth paying to do it. The EU will protect itself, as it has every right to in the event of a Brexit.

As for the corporate elite, they'll be licking their lips at the thought of a Brexit. Why do you think so many rich right wingers want it? They'll make a killing off it, and it'll be the poor and middle classes who will mop it up. Again.

You know what though, on point two, you're sort of right - it wouldn't make sense to drive the UK into recession by essentially closing off the European market. Oh wait, got that mixed up - point remains though eh?

 

[LocalNative]

I think we'll vote out. It's amazing, but I think it'll happen. There's an awful lot of small-minded, insular thinking "shy voters" out there who will vote against foreigners as much as they will Europe.

We've become a hateful, arrogant little nation over the past 20 years or so, and it's telling through things like this referendum even being close, and odious scum like Boris and Farage actually enjoying mainstream support.

God I really really hope it doesn't happen. There are ways to control immigration whilst still being a member of the EU. It's the world we live in now though, ISIS really succeeded in turning the normal white male against migrants with their fear-mongering.

The age divide is insane though. Over 60% over over 30's want to stay, whilst over 80's are 70& in favour of leaving.

The younger people of this nation should be the ones that are listened to, they are the ones that will pick up the pieces of any potential fallout.

 

[Tubey]

Add Merkel, the IMF, big banks and big business's to that list, and add the word greed, this would be nearer the truth.

Again, agreed. But you can't change those aspects without being a part of it.

All leaving does is weaken our position on the global stage and allow ourselves to be subject to the whims of a giant economic powerhouse we have absolutely no say in just over the water. Again, why the hell would we do that?

 

[Tubey]

God I really really hope it doesn't happen. There are ways to control immigration whilst still being a member of the EU. It's the world we live in now though, ISIS really succeeded in turning the normal white male against migrants with their fear-mongering.

The age divide is insane though. Over 60% over over 30's want to stay, whilst over 80's are 70& in favour of leaving.

The younger people of this nation should be the ones that are listened to, they are the ones that will pick up the pieces of any potential fallout.

And if we're being honest, it's because there is higher levels of both wealth and bigotry in the older generations. It is what it is - they're voting against foreigners, and voting out of Europe as they'll have the money to absorb the blow.

The attitude is "to hell with everyone else". The Tory way, basically, and it is shocking to me to see so many Labour supporters falling for it.

 

[peteblue]

I wish people would read this - and at least try to understand it - before voting out because of "dem der foreigners".

http://www.economist.com/news/brief...referendum-britains-eu-membership-if-he-loses

It'd be the equivalent of punching yourself in the face for no reason if we do.

Not really. It's full of false assumptions and views......

 

[Tubey]

Not really. It's full of false assumptions and views......

Good God, the irony...

 

[LocalNative]

And if we're being honest, it's because there is higher levels of both wealth and bigotry in the older generations. It is what it is - they're voting against foreigners, and voting out of Europe as they'll have the money to absorb the blow.

The attitude is "to hell with everyone else". The Tory way, basically, and it is shocking to me to see so many Labour supporters falling for it.

It's now worldwide. Trump is a serious contender in USA, Boris Johnson is actually supported here, the Austrian fascists have insane support etc. I'm actually ashamed of this nation if it votes to leave. Christ, god forbid.

 

[Ratkiller]

Obviously not everyone voting Leave is a racist or a bigot - but let's not pretend a good portion of them aren't. They certainly are.

And again, what you see from what you've just posted is a load of unsubstantiated rhetoric. Defend our NHS from what exactly? You do know the UK government is complicit in TTIP, right, and there's broad mainstream support for it, so given the choice we'd politically go for it anyway?

Labours stance:

"We support the principles behind the negotiations on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership Treaty (TTIP). We will hold the European Commission to account on issues of concern, including the impact on public services and the Investor to State Dispute Settlement Mechanism. And we will ensure the NHS is protected from the TTIP treaty."

Conservatives:

"We will push for freer global trade, concluding major trade deals with the US, India and Japan and reinvigorating the World Trade Organisation."

Lib Dems:

"We will support negotiations at the World Trade Organisation as well as an ambitious Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) between the EU and the USA, which could bring benefits of up to £10 billion a year to the British economy."

Everything else in that text is just a load of buzzwords. What is 'Fortress Britain'? What is the 'threat to democracy from the far right' that is exclusively the domain of being in Europe?

Meanwhile, everything arguing for Remain is substantiated with impact studies.

Last thing - look at the fundamental contradiction. If we apparently have no sovereignty and need to leave the EU to make our own decisions, then how exactly have "nearly all the laws that protect workers in Britain are UK laws"?

The concept of sovereignty is completely over-baked - we already have it. Obviously.

Mate, I've got be honest here. Every single bit from both sides is full of buzzwords. I would be here all day if I could be arsed responding to every point with another point from the other side.

I've got better things to do.

I'll be voting out. Even if we win we're going nowhere. The people in power have absolutely no intention of handing that power back to us little people.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[SNova]

And if we're being honest, it's because there is higher levels of both wealth and bigotry in the older generations. It is what it is - they're voting against foreigners, and voting out of Europe as they'll have the money to absorb the blow.

The attitude is "to hell with everyone else". The Tory way, basically, and it is shocking to me to see so many Labour supporters falling for it.

I'm hoping most young people do not vote. Which will most likely be the case. They speak of lowering the voting age. I'd increase it.

It's now worldwide. Trump is a serious contender in USA, Boris Johnson is actually supported here, the Austrian fascists have insane support etc. I'm actually ashamed of this nation if it votes to leave. Christ, god forbid.

People are tired of the Globalists.

 

[dandydan]

Obviously not everyone voting Leave is a racist or a bigot - but let's not pretend a good portion of them aren't. They certainly are.

No bigotry or prejudice here! Nope! No siree

 

[magicjuan]

How Christianity spread is pretty well known. I didn't even think it was a question of debate. Orthodox Christianity didn't occur until the council of Nicaea 325 AD and up until that point (the article I gave) it did spread organically slowly taking over cities starting with the poor which all begun due to Paul.

Even after Nicaea the Empire still didn't impose the religion on it's subjects. Constantine was tolerant of other religions and didn't even himself get baptized until his death bed.

Being Catholic I didn't find anything the author said as questionable.

Are you a practising Catholic? Just curious.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The problem with that article is that it's nonsense. It's another one that basically says we have to leave the EU on their terms and they are going to punish us for leaving.

1. They won't punish us because they don't want to give the impression they are dictatorship keeping countries against their will.
2. They won't punish us because it makes no economic sense to drive the whole of the EU into recession by essentially closing off the British market.
3. The corporate elite won't allow it.

Any agreement would require ratification by all member bodies. Whilst Germany, France et al do a lot of trade with Britain, the likes of Romania hardly do any, and us leaving closes the door for their citizens to live and work here. Only takes one state to say no thanks. What's more, the Spanish prime minister recently said that it's hard to see how British expats would remain in Spain should we leave. The idea that all member states are similarly beholden to Britain is a little arrogant.

You're advocating a position based upon next to nothing in terms of certainty of outcome, whether it's future trade deals, the management of EU/British citizens here and abroad, the reaction of Scotland/Wales/Ireland to Brexit, the length of time take to negotiate any subsequent arrangements and so on. And that's even before you look at the very real threat of how other countries in the world will respond to Britain leaving.

That last point is something that is ignored by the leavers. Hollande has the worst ratings of any French President in living memory, with the terrifying Le Pen gaining ground. If Le Pen did get into office, it seems likely that she would push to leave the EU too, leaving Germany as the last remaining huge economy remaining. It's hard to imagine they would shoulder responsibility for leadership on their own.

Add to the mix that much of eastern Europe is still heavily reliant on Russia in terms of energy, and it's not that far fetched to imagine Putin sat there rubbing his hands ready to capitalise on any chaos that ensues to try and snatch back the Soviet Empire from a Europe where the main two military powers (Britain and France) have upped the drawbridge.

Could you say that such a scenario will never happen?

 

[Cypher]

Apologies - I thought you were talking about the EU as a whole. Easy mistake to make when the immigrants into EU countries such as Germany and the UK tend to be the ones taking the least out, compared to what they put in.

Muslims are 50% unemployed if they are male and 75% if they are women across Europe. How exactly do you work out that they are putting the most in and taking the least out. If you had of read the previous comments it was clear it was this kind of migration I was talking about.

Grouping all migrants together isn't fair. That's why we need a points based system.