The EU deal

[dandydan]

does anyone actually think vote leave will happen??

Can't see it myself even if fixing the vote fails to keep us in we would likely be told to vote again.

 

[peteblue]

It's not quite so zero sum though is it? For instance, if we leave the EU, do you think that will encourage the likes of the National Front in France, or PVV in Holland, Podomos in Spain, Syreza in Greece and so on to continue their populist policies? Do you think it will encourage the Visegrad nations to stick two fingers up at any migration issues? Do you think it will encourage the SNP to break free of Britain?

None of those things are directly our concern, but all will have an impact on British life, as will the EU rules we will have to abide by if we wish to trade with Europe, or the hundreds of multi-lateral trade agreements we're party too, or the WTO, NATO or various other international bodies that have an impact on how we behave.

It's an international world so I don't see how we can sit aside from that and say none of what goes on effects us.

Bruce, of course it affects us. But if you believe that any individual in the UK Voting on Brexit needs to consider the aspirations of Syreza in Greece while casting his or her vote then you may be disappointed.....

These EU rules that everyone tells us we will have to abide by is a a con. A number of countries have free trade agreements with the EU and are not bound by their rules nor migration. We are a big enough player to be taken seriously.... If Germany decided it wanted out tomorrow, no one would be threatening them with EU rules, they would just do what they wish. Why are people so frightened of running their own country, ffs we used to manage a quarter of the globe......

 

[peteblue]

Can't see it myself even if fixing the vote fails to keep us in we would likely be told to vote again.

I agree with this, but at least we will have a stronger negotiating position......

 

[SNova]

Can't see it myself even if fixing the vote fails to keep us in we would likely be told to vote again.

I don't think they could be so blatant this time. We've all seen what they did to the Irish. I believe fraud will be the way they'll win, postal votes, project fear and dirty tactics.

 

[dandydan]

I don't think they could be so blatant this time. We've all seen what they did to the Irish. I believe fraud will be the way they'll win, postal votes, project fear and dirty tactics.

How people can want to be part of something that just ignores the public will in such a manner is beyond me.

 

[Jxg]

But at least the EU is currently slowing them down and occasionally blocking things. That's why the Right Wing want out, to get away from the European Courts and Conventions, so they can define their own and change them to suit when they are found to be acting outside them. It's the only effective opposition we have these days.

You're viewing this wrong.

You're looking at it as "Us - Left Wing - In v Them - Right Wing - Out".

This isn't a vote that can be defined on a GCSE Politics student's political horseshoe. For instance, the hottest topic is immigration and many left wing voters want out of the EU because over two million unskilled jobs are currently taken by migrants, with many more than half of those coming from the EU.

There's a reason Farage and Galloway both want out and, to most people, they couldn't be further apart on the political spectrum. The simple fact of the matter is that the EU is highly authoritarian and many people oppose this, regardless of their left/right tendencies.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce, of course it affects us. But if you believe that any individual in the UK Voting on Brexit needs to consider the aspirations of Syreza in Greece while casting his or her vote then you may be disappointed.....

These EU rules that everyone tells us we will have to abide by is a a con. A number of countries have free trade agreements with the EU and are not bound by their rules nor migration. We are a big enough player to be taken seriously.... If Germany decided it wanted out tomorrow, no one would be threatening them with EU rules, they would just do what they wish. Why are people so frightened of running their own country, ffs we used to manage a quarter of the globe......

Mate, I don't expect anything of others, but I outlined my own rationale in my first post in this thread. I think a Brexit would have a ripple effect throughout Europe that would bite us and them on the bum. We have to remember that the relative peace the continent has enjoyed in recent times is an anomaly in European history. I would hate to go back to a time where the nations of Europe were at each others throats all the time.

Regarding the Germany thing, as the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I want Brexit to collapse the EU. I want other European countries free of it too. I want countries to start acting in the national interests of its own people. Now you say populist parties are on the rise, why is that a problem for you? It's called democracy. If the major parties are ignoring the will of the people of course they will look to vote elsewhere.

It's a problem because those on the left are economically illiterate, and those on the right are openly racist. History has shown us that governments tend to work best when they're capable, and that's been true regardless of affiliation. Populists talk a good game, set people against one another, and then flop and flounder when it comes to actually doing anything as they've pissed off all of the people they need to work with to get anything done.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

You're viewing this wrong.

You're looking at it as "Us - Left Wing- In v Them - Right Wing - Out".

This isn't a vote that can be defined on a GCSE Politics student's political horseshoe. For instance, the hottest topic is immigration and many left wing voters want out of the EU because over two million unskilled jobs are currently taken by migrants, with many more than half of those coming from the EU.

There's a reason Farage and Galloway both want out and, to most people, they couldn't be further apart on the political spectrum. The simple fact of the matter is that the EU is highly authoritarian and many people oppose this, regardless of their left/right tendencies.

no, I'm not. I couldn't care less what the Left do. If we leave the EU what little industry/manufacturing will collapse and the Economy will be screwed.
How will taking away the rights of workers make it better for anyone? there is a growing proportion of full time workers who cant afford food and a roof over their heads as it is, abolishing EU work practises will only allow Employers to pay less for more work.

Do you not think that if Boris, IDS, Gove, Farage, Galloway and Rupert Murdoch all want the same thing then it must be opposed with every fibre of your being?
Cameron is only anti withdrawal because he's paid by the City who can see what a stupid idea it is.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

there is a growing proportion of full time workers who cant afford food and a roof over their heads as it is, abolishing EU work practises will only allow Employers to pay less for more work.

In a Tory Britain that had left the EU, this x10. With the Labour party in disarray and no EU legislation, the Conservatives and their business cronies would run riot. Less pay, longer hours, more difficult to hold companies to account when they abuse the rights of their employees.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

In a Tory Britain that had left the EU, this x10. With the Labour party in disarray and no EU legislation, the Conservatives and their business cronies would run riot. Less pay, longer hours, more difficult to hold companies to account when they abuse the rights of their employees.

Correct, the last thing you want is them writing their own rules without any checks or balances.
The Lords have been crippled and is being manoeuvred into oblivion if it blocks Bills, the Electoral system is being altered to reduce even further the likelihood of any other party being able to wrestle power away from them, they already ignore the UN Human Rights commission and now they want to get rid of the last Body that can judge them to be acting against the Human Rights laws we fought so hard to put in place.

Anyone who wants out of Europe is a short sighted fool. How can anyone possibly think that this would be a good thing?

 

[SNova]

Correct, the last thing you want is them writing their own rules without any checks or balances.
The Lords have been crippled and is being manoeuvred into oblivion if it blocks Bills, the Electoral system is being altered to reduce even further the likelihood of any other party being able to wrestle power away from them, they already ignore the UN Human Rights commission and now they want to get rid of the last Body that can judge them to be acting against the Human Rights laws we fought so hard to put in place.

Anyone who wants out of Europe is a short sighted fool. How can anyone possibly think that this would be a good thing?

Our government should be free to rip up workers rights set by the EU if they so wish. The point is that you can vote in another government in five years time that can reverse those decisions.

It's democracy. If the people of the UK vote for a government, that government should hold the power that people borrowed to them. It is not theirs to give away to the EU.

The most important thing for a democracy is that the will of the people is carried out.

 

[squonk]

OK, you win, congratulations your prize is in the post......

noble of you to admit you are bigoted against the irish

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

Our government should be free to rip up workers rights set by the EU if they so wish. The point is that you can vote in another government in five years time that can reverse those decisions.

It's democracy. If the people of the UK vote for a government, that government should hold the power that people borrowed to them. It is not theirs to give away to the EU.

rubbish, have you seen what the Tories are doing to Electoral law at the moment?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-electoral-roll-will-face-challenge-in-lords
Changing the boundaries t break up concentrations of Labour votes, kicking millions of none Tory voters off the Electoral Role.

Changing the rules on Election funding
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/13/tories-david-cameron-buy-election-campaign-spending
Then even breaking those if it looks like they will lose.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-by-election-campaigns-channel-a6861746.html

They don't care about your Democracy, they want rid of it. There will be no chance for a change.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

Correct, the last thing you want is them writing their own rules without any checks or balances.
The Lords have been crippled and is being manoeuvred into oblivion if it blocks Bills, the Electoral system is being altered to reduce even further the likelihood of any other party being able to wrestle power away from them, they already ignore the UN Human Rights commission and now they want to get rid of the last Body that can judge them to be acting against the Human Rights laws we fought so hard to put in place.

Anyone who wants out of Europe is a short sighted fool. How can anyone possibly think that this would be a good thing?

Both sides have some legitimate points, but lots of it is very "what if" whereas the above in my opinion is certain to happen if we leave. That would be a disaster for most people who live in the more urban areas of the country and work for other people.