The EU deal

[magicjuan]

Probably true, but is it ok that I cant change it, am happy with my life and that of my family, and just try to live my life in a harmonious way?

Just as it follows my last post, I'm assuming that's a response.

Everybody should be able to seek change, better their family, curcumstances, but without forgetting social responsibility.

As it is now, those with the means to create greater change have generally detached themselves from responsibility to do so.

If people are comfortable and don't seek change that is fine. As long as there is no consequence or impact on others people are free to make the choice, but as the system is structured someone else has to pay a price for someone else's gain and it is becoming more and more inescapable.

 

[Efcjake]

Let's see. I don't know your age, but I would hazard a guess you display a living naivety.

Clerk type jobs, filing etc, replaced by computers, check. What about automation in industries, in production? What jobs replaced those lost?

Childcare. As I noted, the changes have happened to people who had steady work, had families on that basis, took mortgages out, built foundations for a future, if everybody held back in fear of unemployment there would only be you left and the 60 million immigrants needed to maintain a country. A very fickle and futile approach to family life.

Paying for education. Do you understand the industry of student loans companies, debt selling, changes of contracts? Exactly the same as the system that brought about the crash of 2008. Then there's the insecurity now of job stability. The trend in pay is downwards so you don't reach the point of completion until retirement age, whenever that may be in the future. The ability to pay is being denied to the poorest, if you would like some further 'education' personally I would suggest you read into the changes in New Orleans post disaster, because that is the coming model.

Cheap stuff and McJobs. We'd all like cheap stuff but I'll give you an example of how cheap stuff works. Children you don't see work 12 hour shifts to make the clthes you wear. Cheap food isn't food, it is detrimental to health. There was a chapter in Toffler's 3rd Wave iirc called the death of permanence, how nothing is made to last, no product is designed for longevity, it is made to be cheap, have a short shelf life and need replacing sooner, which fuels the economy. It also depletes resources quicker. Finite resources. Cheap is only cheap at the point if sale. It still costs a lot but to someone else other than you, someone's life, health and the future wellbeing of the global population. But then they could always save their one dollar a day wage for an education couldn't they?

Sitting around waiting for society. Consumerism. Read about it. It is part ofvthe capitalist model, it creates these people's situation, it needs them to be in that situation, without them it collapses. Understand that, you're on on the way to understanding the system.
Because the system is what there is. You have a role to play, we all have a role to play. There hasvto be layers to support those at the top controlling it. It's a pyramid. It needs people, as you have displayed, to feel safe as long as there are layers below them, supporting them, and it generates your deference to those above.

This system hasn't always been the way. Money hasn't always been in control, it needs to be implemented. If you understood the ancient hierarchical societies they were all mutual familial and community based structures whereby those thst could would look after those that couldn't, children, the old and the sick, until someone thought ' I know I'll put a value on a thing and say it is more valuable than life, then I'll create greed and fear among them. Then I can fet them to work for me'. Thus began capitalism, and it all started with s lazy b'stard who wouldn't pull his weight or care about anyone else but himself. Ironic that isn't it?

There'll be a point in your life when you realise that the best things in life aren't 'things' but life itself and giving a flying one for the life of another, if you can afford it.

The clerks thing was me just offering an example agreeing with you about the ways in which the employment market has changed due to technology. What jobs have replaced those lost to automation and outsourced labour in production industries you ask? Well none really, that's what I was saying. That's why those people who had those jobs need to find a job that they can transfer those skills into or gain the requisite skills for a different job.

When I was talking about childcare I was talking about people who had kids that they couldn't afford, not people who had kids they could afford to have and then got laid off. That's a different situation entirely. Obviously the situations and opportunities available for someone at the earlier end of their career will make it easier for someone to pivot into another industry or job because they have less commitments and haven't invested as much time and money as someone who had a career previously before being let off.

Yes, I absolutely understand the industry of student loans companies. It is nothing like the same as the system that brought about the crash of 2008. The 2008 crash was a result of people being granted loans they should not have qualified for and the resulting crash in home prices and equity after the bubble burst coupled with the fact that those loans were bundled together and then chopped into pieces and sold under lower risk profiles than they should have been. A student loan is nowhere near the level of risk of a mortgage. You have more time to pay it off and the intention is that taking out that loan secures you enough of an increase in future earnings that you are not only capable of paying the loan off but more well off than you were with those loan payments deducted. Debt that funds and increased earning is not bad debt, when you acquire a debt that you can't manage and isn't going to provide you a return that is when you get into the trouble of the 2008 crisis. So I wouldn't recommend someone take out a student loan for a Bachelor in Art History because it very likely isn't going to increase your earning potential.

You don't need to educate me about how cheap stuff is made, I have a degree in supply chain management. My point is that we're all partially responsible for creating this low-wage society as a result of our consumption habits desiring low prices. Your point about cheap food perfectly sums it up. People know it is crap and bad for them but they're still buying it because it is cheap and they're still contributing to the downward trend in wages by doing so. People want to moan about McJobs but some of them are still going out and buying Big Macs.

I don't know what version of world history you are looking at when you talk about money not being in control. We have had community values based societies but the overwhelming majority in recorded history appear to have had consolidated the wealth and power. This isn't new, the Egyptians had their Pharaohs, Romans and Chinese their Emperors. Even when we "discovered" the Americas they were busy killing each other over wealth and territory. Capitalism has been around in various forms forever. Those societies you talk about that were familial and community organized were often based like that as a result of necessity to maintain their subsistence lifestyles.

 

[roydo]

Just as it follows my last post, I'm assuming that's a response.

Everybody should be able to seek change, better their family, curcumstances, but without forgetting social responsibility.

As it is now, those with the means to create greater change have generally detached themselves from responsibility to do so.

If people are comfortable and don't seek change that is fine. As long as there is no consequence or impact on others people are free to make the choice, but as the system is structured someone else has to pay a price for someone else's gain and it is becoming more and more inescapable.

Soz, it was, yes.

Kind of agree with what you say really. Just cant be that exorcised by the system we have.

Maybe its cos I have jumped out of the rat race I had been in for too long. I see folk getting into their company cars and heading off to ultimately pointless sales and marketing meetings that will alter zippo, feel a bit sorry for them, then feel guilty cos I did that, which has meant I can jack it all in, and do a jib I love.

If thats the system, it aint that bad. Fools being rewarded by fools basically.

Like I get paid, reasonably well, for delivering the sort of cheap tat you were on about. "Free Delivery"? Ha ha!!

The whole thing is just to daft for words really, but, crucially, it sort of works. Someone buys cheaply made crap. Then everyone in the food chain is rewarded. Starting with questionable working conditions somewhere. Ending up with little old me.

 

[magicjuan]

The clerks thing was me just offering an example agreeing with you about the ways in which the employment market has changed due to technology. What jobs have replaced those lost to automation and outsourced labour in production industries you ask? Well none really, that's what I was saying. That's why those people who had those jobs need to find a job that they can transfer those skills into or gain the requisite skills for a different job.

When I was talking about childcare I was talking about people who had kids that they couldn't afford, not people who had kids they could afford to have and then got laid off. That's a different situation entirely. Obviously the situations and opportunities available for someone at the earlier end of their career will make it easier for someone to pivot into another industry or job because they have less commitments and haven't invested as much time and money as someone who had a career previously before being let off.

Yes, I absolutely understand the industry of student loans companies. It is nothing like the same as the system that brought about the crash of 2008. The 2008 crash was a result of people being granted loans they should not have qualified for and the resulting crash in home prices and equity after the bubble burst coupled with the fact that those loans were bundled together and then chopped into pieces and sold under lower risk profiles than they should have been. A student loan is nowhere near the level of risk of a mortgage. You have more time to pay it off and the intention is that taking out that loan secures you enough of an increase in future earnings that you are not only capable of paying the loan off but more well off than you were with those loan payments deducted. Debt that funds and increased earning is not bad debt, when you acquire a debt that you can't manage and isn't going to provide you a return that is when you get into the trouble of the 2008 crisis. So I wouldn't recommend someone take out a student loan for a Bachelor in Art History because it very likely isn't going to increase your earning potential.

You don't need to educate me about how cheap stuff is made, I have a degree in supply chain management. My point is that we're all partially responsible for creating this low-wage society as a result of our consumption habits desiring low prices. Your point about cheap food perfectly sums it up. People know it is crap and bad for them but they're still buying it because it is cheap and they're still contributing to the downward trend in wages by doing so. People want to moan about McJobs but some of them are still going out and buying Big Macs.

I don't know what version of world history you are looking at when you talk about money not being in control. We have had community values based societies but the overwhelming majority in recorded history appear to have had consolidated the wealth and power. This isn't new, the Egyptians had their Pharaohs, Romans and Chinese their Emperors. Even when we "discovered" the Americas they were busy killing each other over wealth and territory. Capitalism has been around in various forms forever. Those societies you talk about that were familial and community organized were often based like that as a result of necessity to maintain their subsistence lifestyles.

We're going to go round and round. Theoretics versus actualities, perspectives and causes. I would suggest I tend to look around and see what I could do to help others, yours would be to see no responsibility just collateral circumstance and leave it to Darwinistic economics. One is instinctive, the other robotic.

 

[magicjuan]

Soz, it was, yes.

Kind of agree with what you say really. Just cant be that exorcised by the system we have.

Maybe its cos I have jumped out of the rat race I had been in for too long. I see folk getting into their company cars and heading off to ultimately pointless sales and marketing meetings that will alter zippo, feel a bit sorry for them, then feel guilty cos I did that, which has meant I can jack it all in, and do a jib I love.

If thats the system, it aint that bad. Fools being rewarded by fools basically.

Like I get paid, reasonably well, for delivering the sort of cheap tat you were on about. "Free Delivery"? Ha ha!!

The whole thing is just to daft for words really, but, crucially, it sort of works. Someone buys cheaply made crap. Then everyone in the food chain is rewarded. Starting with questionable working conditions somewhere. Ending up with little old me.

That's the process, just there is no attempt by those in a position to change to be more inclusive. Generally there is more spent on killing, advertising said cheap tat, and such than on the betterment of us all. It only seems to strike some people when they or someone else becomes 'a consequence'.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

UKIP PPB on now.....About how 600,000 citizens leaving london, housing overcrowding & blaming immigration.


Not that Nuttall is on record as supporting the bedroom tax - which has been a major factor in the mass exodus from londonium, like...

 

[Efcjake]

We're going to go round and round. Theoretics versus actualities, perspectives and causes. I would suggest I tend to look around and see what I could do to help others, yours would be to see no responsibility just collateral circumstance and leave it to Darwinistic economics. One is instinctive, the other robotic.

So here's the thing though. This all started talking about immigration and how immigrants were responsible for all these problems preventing British people from becoming employed. Except, when you go into the nuts and bolts of it like we just have you see there is much more at play affecting the labor markets. (This is all I was trying to show when I started talking to @Whistlin' Dixie in the first place).

They just want the same thing. Except they have gotten off their backsides, taken action and moved somewhere else because where they were wasn't providing it.

There is a lot more responsible for the amount of people out of work than immigrants receiving benefits.

 

[roydo]

That's the process, just there is no attempt by those in a position to change to be more inclusive. Generally there is more spent on killing, advertising said cheap tat, and such than on the betterment of us all. It only seems to strike some people when they or someone else becomes 'a consequence'.

Yep. I have gambled on being as in control of my own situation, (health notwithstanding, obv), by the time I was 50, as I could be. Was a year out. Still need to work/earn (modest) money, but can do that now on my terms, largely. (As long as folk buy crap on the internet!)

Been blown off course many times, but I just do not trust anyone in authority to leave my life in their (financial) hands.

Probably why I am reasonably relaxed about staying in the EU, (back on topic, nice one Me!). It irritates me, but it doesnt really affect me too much, whereas leaving it, could.

 

[Efcjake]

UKIP PPB on now.....About how 600,000 citizens leaving london, housing overcrowding & blaming immigration.


Not that Nuttall is on record as supporting the bedroom tax - which has been a major factor in the mass exodus from londonium, like...

How unusual.

 

[roydo]

UKIP PPB on now.....About how 600,000 citizens leaving london, housing overcrowding & blaming immigration.


Not that Nuttall is on record as supporting the bedroom tax - which has been a major factor in the mass exodus from londonium, like...

Wonder how many of that 600,000 are immigrants themselves?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Wonder how many of that 600,000 are immigrants themselves?

A fair few, I'd imagine.

 

[roydo]

A fair few, I'd imagine.

I went to London once. I reckon more than 7.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I went to London once. I reckon more than 7.

I shouldn't, but

lol

 

[summerisle]

Waste of space Boris Johnson on BBC 1 now.

 

[rascal]

I've come round to wanting to remain and I'm quite annoyed with jumped up twits wanting to leave the EU as it's made my visits to the continent more expensive already.

Twits.