The EU deal

[peteblue]

What a repulsive, racist pig that is.

He must be one of those right wing turkeys who reads the Sun.......

 

[peteblue]

I know Norway is not a member. The out campaign is an enabler for the right wing of the tories. I do not want to give them more freedom to rule.

Oh dear. So the whole campaign is just plot by the Tories, and yet the same Tories are also campaigning to remain in the EU. It must be really difficult for you to have to think that apart from the 'bad' Tories who wish to leave that there are 'good' Tories who wish to remain. How wonderful it must be to just follow a political dogma and not actually think for yourself..........

 

[magicjuan]

Oh dear. So the whole campaign is just plot by the Tories, and yet the same Tories are also campaigning to remain in the EU. It must be really difficult for you to have to think that apart from the 'bad' Tories who wish to leave that there are 'good' Tories who wish to remain. How wonderful it must be to just follow a political dogma and not actually think for yourself..........

It is a difficulty. I find myself with some very extremely unsavoury bedfellows (yes, yes, fnarr...).

People I wouldn't cross the road for, want the same result in this particular instance as I do, yet everything else they represent repulses me politically.

My mind was made up many, many years ago regarding the EU, and it hasn't changed one bit with everything I've heard, but it does sit extremely uncomfortably with whom I am aligned. I shudder at the thought sometimes.

 

[magicjuan]

I know Norway is not a member. The out campaign is an enabler for the right wing of the tories. I do not want to give them more freedom to rule.

Then unfortunately you need to be more informed on the subject.

If you think it is a right wing prerogative to want to leave the EU, you are mistaken. The rhetoric has been hijacked by a media to narrow the discussion down to two points only, immigration and economics, both mainstays of right leaning politics, yet the reason I wish to leave is that of democratic self determjnation. The lack of democracy and accountability in the EU is staggering and the ambition it holds is to tighten that.

That doesn't make me a rabid nazi does it?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It is a difficulty. I find myself with some very extremely unsavoury bedfellows (yes, yes, fnarr...).

People I wouldn't cross the road for, want the same result in this particular instance as I do, yet everything else they represent repulses me politically.

My mind was made up many, many years ago regarding the EU, and it hasn't changed one bit with everything I've heard, but it does sit extremely uncomfortably with whom I am aligned. I shudder at the thought sometimes.

I suspect this isn't 'that' uncommon. It's a simpler narrative to assume that people are polar opposites on each and every issue, but I suspect the reality is a lot more nuanced and there is significant cross over on certain issues. I mean some Labour voters will no doubt be tough on law and order/whilst others are more liberal, some may support market economics/others prefer a state led economy, some may be pro/anti immigration, and likewise the same for Tory voters.

It's probably the same for this referendum. Some may be voting because of the perceived economic impact, some may do it for immigration reasons, some may do it for autonomy based reasons. It's unlikely, I suspect, for people to agree on all of those issues yet they're still lumped into the same in/out box.

I'm not entirely sure it makes for particularly good decision making, but that's perhaps for another discussion.

 

[magicjuan]

I suspect this isn't 'that' uncommon. It's a simpler narrative to assume that people are polar opposites on each and every issue, but I suspect the reality is a lot more nuanced and there is significant cross over on certain issues. I mean some Labour voters will no doubt be tough on law and order/whilst others are more liberal, some may support market economics/others prefer a state led economy, some may be pro/anti immigration, and likewise the same for Tory voters.

It's probably the same for this referendum. Some may be voting because of the perceived economic impact, some may do it for immigration reasons, some may do it for autonomy based reasons. It's unlikely, I suspect, for people to agree on all of those issues yet they're still lumped into the same in/out box.

I'm not entirely sure it makes for particularly good decision making, but that's perhaps for another discussion.

I agree, and I think it is intentionally muddled, personally, to provide a remain vote. Once achieved it will give a legitimacy to any damning legislation in the future, wether wanted or not.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I agree, and I think it is intentionally muddled, personally, to provide a remain vote. Once achieved it will give a legitimacy to any damning legislation in the future, wether wanted or not.

The thing is, when you only have two options (whether that's in/out or Con/Lab), it inevitably leads to unlikely bedfellows that share some things but not others. The only real alternative is to have a system whereby the broad rules or principles that the vast majority of us share are constant, and then people choose the rest based upon their personal beliefs and priorities.

 

[Rob17896]

So anyone who wants their independence is a right wing turkey who automatically follows the diktats of the sun. If that view is what you call civilisation then we need a rethink......

How exactly was the city 'saved' by EU money ?...

It paid for all the regeneration projects that brought in private sector later. Speke/Garston, waterfront all eu enabled

 

[Rob17896]

He must be one of those right wing turkeys who reads the Sun.......

I dont believe voting out is right wing. The people campaigning for it mostly are. Austerity gave them licence to attack the poor and public sector. No EU will allow them to attack living standards even more. They want all of us to help the rich get richer.
Boris, Farage etc. Evil.
Dont take it personally, they are a con trick that even Osborne will not stoop to.

 

[jaycee]

I watched a bit of lunchtime news today just call me Dave put forward the argument that holidays in Europe may become more expensive,I havent heard either side put up a strong argument for the things that people actually care about

 

[Rob17896]

Oh dear. So the whole campaign is just plot by the Tories, and yet the same Tories are also campaigning to remain in the EU. It must be really difficult for you to have to think that apart from the 'bad' Tories who wish to leave that there are 'good' Tories who wish to remain. How wonderful it must be to just follow a political dogma and not actually think for yourself..........

Pete. The same tories are not campaigning. It is the right wing which is about half of them. Any party that can inflict the bedroom tax deserves to be disliked. And I am not dogmatic and think about this stuff a lot mate. I know as blues we are not used to Europe but I think we should get more involved.☺

 

[roydo]

I watched a bit of lunchtime news today just call me Dave put forward the argument that holidays in Europe may become more expensive,I havent heard either side put up a strong argument for the things that people actually care about

Thats the thing isnt it?

Like part of me thinks if we voted out, then the EU, well Germany, would actually prefer us to stay, so we might then be able to get a better deal, and then stay in. But we might not.

The cost is astronomical. Uncontrolled immigrations aint great.

But workers rights, free movement of people is good, (and I know, thats a contradiction!), the thought that no matter how nutty an extreme government here could still be piped down by the EU is not the worst thing ever.

But the CAP is bonkers, the fisheries policy is bust, and we do have too many rules made over there.

And if we vote to stay, then thats that. The EU could go bat ape with stuff after then.

Sake.

 

[jaycee]

Thats the thing isnt it?

Like part of me thinks if we voted out, then the EU, well Germany, would actually prefer us to stay, so we might then be able to get a better deal, and then stay in. But we might not.

The cost is astronomical. Uncontrolled immigrations aint great.

But workers rights, free movement of people is good, (and I know, thats a contradiction!), the thought that no matter how nutty an extreme government here could still be piped down by the EU is not the worst thing ever.

But the CAP is bonkers, the fisheries policy is bust, and we do have too many rules made over there.

And if we vote to stay, then thats that. The EU could go bat ape with stuff after then.

Sake.

Thats the thing though Roydo Id say for most people immigration is the main sticking point,albeit fuelled by scare stories,workers rights,actual figures concerning jobs either gained or lost, none of these things are getting answered its like school kids with my dad is bigger than yours
I want clear facts and figures how can you have apublic vote without prividing essenstial points?

 

[roydo]

Thats the thing though Roydo Id say for most people immigration is the main sticking point,albeit fuelled by scare stories,workers rights,actual figures concerning jobs either gained or lost, none of these things are getting answered its like school kids with my dad is bigger than yours
I want clear facts and figures how can you have apublic vote without prividing essenstial points?

It (immigration) probably is in a lot of areas that are more affected by it than I am down here.

But the irony is that the self same rules allow Brits who have the means can swan off to Tuscany and France and practically colonise areas there is lost on many who, probably, would gripe about it over here.

Like on balance, to me, if something can be supported by Cameron and Corbyn, maybe for different reasons, then it has serious merit.

And in the same vein, something that unites, (sic), Boris and Farage, probably isnt that great for the bulk of the country.

 

[Huyton Layne]

Turns out I'm still able to vote on this. Voting to stay as my BNP brother keeps boring me on Facebook with brexit stuff