The EU deal

[chrismpw]

son of a French man. Part educated in France

most famous for work resulting from living abroad.

passionate anti xenophobe, inspired hugely by foreigners and foreign lands, at a time when travel to them was not so easy. Imagine if it were.

very much broadened his horizons through travel to and residence in both Europe and the US.

influenced by and influencer of scientists of all nationalities. If he'd have been alive today he'd have been working in collaboration with and in close proximity to other great minds progressing science faster and further.

and before Fleming came Duchesne. Perhaps if he'd have had the benefit of studying in the UK his discovery of penicillin 32yrs earlier may not have been overlooked!

the formative years of his most famous invention were spent living abroad.

No doubt all these were Great Brits, but there's also strong argument that they were influenced by the opening up of the world (as much as could be expected for their respective times) and the fact that they had opportunity.

I'd say that the EU limits this "seeing of the the greater world". Being in the EU is like being in a city that you do not need to travel out of to get and see pretty much everything - at least that's the mentality. The world is open now because of another British invention - the internet. I think the days of these corporate Old Boys clubs like the EU should be looked on as limiting us, not empowering us.

Your point about Shakespeare being an anti-xenophobe seems to imply that the in/out debate about being in the EU is a xenophobic one. I could not agree less. I like and respect the diversity of peoples around the planet, and I like the average Brit very little - but I still do not want to be a member of the EU, on the grounds that it discriminates against non-EU peoples, it controls EU peoples un-democratically and it is simply a set up to benefit big business - not humans.

Also - the Brunel bit about being French - pretty much all of English land is still under French ownership, and under the influence of a French aristocracy since 1066, so that point is mute.

Your point about Shakespeare having his horizons broadened by potentially travelling to the US (did it exist back then?) made me chuckle though. I could see him intertwining some advertising into his plays every 10 minutes , and a bit of product placement for some cheaply made overpriced goods.

 

[chrismpw]

I quite agree. Science today is a collaborative endeavour whereby, to quote Newton, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. We're lucky to have some fantastically bright people studying and researching here from all over the world, and likewise have exceptional links throughout Europe. It would be a real shame if that were threatened.

These links existed BEFORE we were in the EU. They will exist after - if we leave. Science transcends these convenient economic boundaries.

Strikes me that all the arguments I've heard about staying in are based upon "fear" of leaving - and the seeds are planted that we will be back to the days of ox drawn carriages and sewage in the streets.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The world is open now because of another British invention - the internet.

Which was developed at CERN, which is a collaborative particle physics lab in Switzerland. It was a Briton that invented it, but he was far from working on it alone

 

[chrismpw]

Which was developed at CERN, which is a collaborative particle physics lab in Switzerland. It was a Briton that invented it, but he was far from working on it alone

We invent everything useful - wherever we are! Don't need an economic union to facilitate that - you just need cooperative people.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

These links existed BEFORE we were in the EU. They will exist after - if er leave. Science transcends these convenient economic bondaries.

In an ideal world yes, they would. We can see in America however that the tech companies there have significant grievances with the immigration restrictions as they can't attract the talent they want.

It seems possible that a vote to leave will be followed with a toughening up on immigration, which may well do the same here.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We invent everything useful - wherever we are! Don't need an economic union to facilitate that - you just need cooperative people.

Again, yes and no. If we want to attract the brightest people, we need friendly immigration policies. For instance, I was at Nature the other week listening to what some smart youngsters are doing in quantum computing. They were all at British universities, but none were British themselves. Of course you'd like to think that even a 'tough' immigration policy will allow the brightest through, but America does provide an example of where that logical outcome isn't happening.

 

[daylightrobber]

I'd say that the EU limits this "seeing of the the greater world". Being in the EU is like being in a city that you do not need to travel out of to get and see pretty much everything - at least that's the mentality. The world is open now because of another British invention - the internet. I think the days of these corporate Old Boys clubs like the EU should be looked on as limiting us, not empowering us.

Your point about Shakespeare being an anti-xenophobe seems to imply that the in/out debate about being in the EU is a xenophobic one. I could not agree less. I like and respect the diversity of peoples around the planet, and I like the average Brit very little - but I still do not want to be a member of the EU, on the grounds that it discriminates against non-EU peoples, it controls EU peoples un-democratically and it is simply a set up to benefit big business - not humans.

Also - the Brunel bit about being French - pretty much all of English land is still under French ownership, and under the influence of a French aristocracy since 1066, so that point is mute.

Your point about Shakespeare having his horizons broadened by potentially travelling to the US (did it exist back then?) made me chuckle though. I could see him intertwining some advertising into his plays every 10 minutes , and a bit of product placement for some cheaply made overpriced goods.

Maybe not for you, but for the official out campaign it is becoming more and more so. Brexit is running its own campaign of Project Fear, and immigration is the weapon of choice.

 

[chrismpw]

In an ideal world yes, they would. We can see in America however that the tech companies there have significant grievances with the immigration restrictions as they can't attract the talent they want.

It seems possible that a vote to leave will be followed with a toughening up on immigration, which may well do the same here.

So your immigration policies are giving other countries a chance to employ talented individuals. Perhaps those talented individuals who aren't allowed in, can contribute to a business in their own land and help the economy there instead. I see that as a plus. Why should companies benefit over countries?

 

[chrismpw]

Maybe not for you, but for the official out campaign it is becoming more and more so. Brexit is running its own campaign of Project Fear, and immigration is the weapon of choice.

That's not what I've been seeing. Sure the out campaign will attract the St George's flag waving, German/Australian/Belgian/French larger drinking xenophobes, and this is an easy target to be used by those who wish to stay in.

The thing I dislike most about the EU is watching the slow erosion of each country's individual differences and culture as they become a superstate. To me the EU seems to be against every nation in its collective. Vive la difference I say.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So your immigration policies are giving other countries a chance to employ talented individuals. Perhaps those talented individuals who aren't allowed in, can contribute to a business in their own land and help the economy there instead. I see that as a plus. Why should companies benefit over countries?

From experience, it isn't really like that. For instance, many talented young people come to Britain because of our exceptional universities. Believe it or not, we also have one of the best environments around for then taking that knowledge and commercialising it, as we have good legal frameworks, excellent venture capital networks and various other features that make creating a company here attractive. As such, we've become a hugely desirable location for smart people in Europe, and it would be madness if that flow was stopped on account of fulfilling some randomly designed quota.

 

[jaycee]

From experience, it isn't really like that. For instance, many talented young people come to Britain because of our exceptional universities. Believe it or not, we also have one of the best environments around for then taking that knowledge and commercialising it, as we have good legal frameworks, excellent venture capital networks and various other features that make creating a company here attractive. As such, we've become a hugely desirable location for smart people in Europe, and it would be madness if that flow was stopped on account of fulfilling some randomly designed quota.

That is one of the points I was alluding to earlier Bruce,out of the money paid in to the EU funding,I think the last figures I seen said around £52m is given to universities for scientific research purposes, and I wonder how things like that will be altered by exiting

 

[chrismpw]

From experience, it isn't really like that. For instance, many talented young people come to Britain because of our exceptional universities. Believe it or not, we also have one of the best environments around for then taking that knowledge and commercialising it, as we have good legal frameworks, excellent venture capital networks and various other features that make creating a company here attractive. As such, we've become a hugely desirable location for smart people in Europe, and it would be madness if that flow was stopped on account of fulfilling some randomly designed quota.

But before the 1970s, when the UK entered, the UK was a hotbed of global scientific research and development - just look at the nationalities that worked at Manchester Uni on atomic structure and nuclear physics. My point is that all these successes are not down to the EU at all, and it would not stop if we left the EU. It seems a non sequitur to me to hang global scientific success purely on the existence of an economic structure involving European countries. The US seems to do well in science too - and they're not part of the EU.

 

[daylightrobber]

That's not what I've been seeing. Sure the out campaign will attract the St George's flag waving, German/Australian/Belgian/French larger drinking xenophobes, and this is an easy target to be used by those who wish to stay in.

The thing I dislike most about the EU is watching the slow erosion of each country's individual differences and culture as they become a superstate. To me the EU seems to be against every nation in its collective. Vive la difference I say.

You obviously missed Penny Mordaunt on Marr last Sunday.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

But before the 1970s, when the UK entered, the UK was a hotbed of global scientific research and development - just look at the nationalities that worked at Manchester Uni on atomic structure and nuclear physics. My point is that all these successes are not down to the EU at all, and it would not stop if we left the EU. It seems a non sequitur to me to hang global scientific success purely on the existence of an economic structure involving European countries. The US seems to do well in science too - and they're not part of the EU.

You could take that to recently, with the invention/discovery of graphene. The patents for which, have been snapped up by the chinese, koreans & the US. We have something like 50 patents from something like 5,000 granted IIRC

The EU hasn't exactly pulled it's finger out on that score, neither.

 

[neil999]

That's not what I've been seeing. Sure the out campaign will attract the St George's flag waving, German/Australian/Belgian/French larger drinking xenophobes, and this is an easy target to be used by those who wish to stay in.

The thing I dislike most about the EU is watching the slow erosion of each country's individual differences and culture as they become a superstate. To me the EU seems to be against every nation in its collective. Vive la difference I say.

i dont see how that has happened at all? every european country is very different and continues to be, you only have to look at how different france,germany and britain are even tho they are in close proximity

america has been united for a long time yet still has big cultural differences in each state