The Everton Board Thread (Inc. Bill Kenwright / Blue Union)

[Dell Boy]

You're now defending the withholding of that info merely on the grounds it's not practicable to provide it. It's really not true. It could be done in an instant.

Do other football clubs detail their 'other operating costs'? I'm all for Everton living up to the standard of other clubs.

Obviously there's an irony here that for most foreign owners/takeovers I'm guessing there'd be very little in the way of open accounting but hey ho.

I've got a small business and I'm buggered if I know what my accountant labels into what pile. That's his job to minimise my tax. He talks me through it each quarter but it flies in one ear and out the other.

If it turned out that Kenwright was secretly paying himself a major chunk of cash via this so-called OOC slush fund then I'd be mightily pissed off. But I take it as true that that would be in contrary to company law and just isn't happening here.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

Depends how much of hte work is done already for the audit I guess..
If its something that has to be created it would be a truly enormous task, if its just a case of digging out what they were audited on and sending it out to public to miscomprehend as they saw fit then its no trouble.
Certainly wouldn't expect them to disect 20mil into milk, coffee, water, electric, paper, light bulbs.. even lawnmowers for the sake of a few fans... And lets face it the demand for that information is very specific to a certain set of fans, almost none of which are friendly to the boss who would be making this happen.

Yeah, didn't either Chris or Foot Long state earlier that every single light bulb, lawnmower, cup of coffee and whatever that the club purchases is submitted to the auditers? And then checked and grouped into OOC for ease of reading in the accounts?

 

[Bungle]

What's goin on here?

Something about B&Q having a sale on Lawn Mowers

 

[roydo]

Not at all, its a business and as operational costs. What happens if the heating system goes at Goodison and its costs £2million (pure guess before people moan) to replace it, this will show in the OOC. Take into account cost of living rises on the most stupidst things (milk, food, drinks for staff), and you'll probably see an increase. Its all these silly things that see the OOC increase.

To publish all transactions relating to this is nonsense. I'm sorry, but it really is. I'm pretty sure you'll breach some sort of Data Protection

Not asking them to itemise all of it, obviously, but massive changes, up or down, should be pretty easy to show as one off incidentals. Like you say, mending the undersoil heating would be a big one off, and wouldnt be repeated for a while, so why not just explain big changes? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[Ihaters]

Yeah, didn't either Chris or Foot Long state earlier that every single light bulb, lawnmower, cup of coffee and whatever that the club purchases is submitted to the auditers? And then checked and grouped into OOC for ease of reading in the accounts?

Well I would presume that to be the case.. Every department would have a budget, every penny of each budget would be accounted for, that would all go to the central finance lads and ladettes who then have to create the financial report from that.. That's how most businesses work.. well the ones I have worked in anyway. I have no idea about what the finance guys do and would never claim to in terms of the financial work role but it strikes me that if they did what Davek said above.. separated the 20mil into sub groups then you would just have the same problem but with more headers.
3mil on groundskeeping... what does that mean? are we buying 3mil of Lawnmowers?
It would be all or nothing I would guess or no one would be satisfied.

 

[roydo]

If the OOC's were £17M in 2005 & 6, & increased to £21M in 2008, then that's a £4M increase & the Finch Farm lease is circa £1.5M of it.

But the headline writers amongst our fanbase haven't bothered sharing that fact, they've focused on 2007 & the £9M (which became £10M, which became 'doubling' of our costs) Costs will vary as with every business, I would guess that agents fees go in there for a start of.

Well im not. I am focusing on massive changes, year on year, up and down, that should be explained, not least to HMRC. If my expenses in my business fluctuate a lot, local inspector usually wants at least a brief explanation, or would expect me to explain if asked.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Do you honestly think that there is no possible set of circumstances where 'bogus invoicing' would be preferred over paying official salaries?

There are three major shareholders at Everton, and even Kenwright, who has the title of chairman, professes to do feck all in way of actually working for Everton: "I don't even know what OOC are, it's the CEO's job". So you tell me what the reaction would be like if he suddenly turned round and told the supporters that he was paying himself £750,000 a year? What would the reaction be if Rob Earle and Phil Carter started taking a salary?

Anyway, it's not for me to answer why they may engage in bogus invoicing as you put it, I'm just stating that it is possible.

Why are Rob Earle's shares registered in a company name in the BVI? He doesn't have to, but it is possible, and he chooses to do so?

For that to happen, the CEO, the accountant / Finance Director & the board would have to be involved. Plus they'd have to hope that the auditors didn't pick up on their bent practice.

Earl choosing to have a shell company in the BVI holding title to his shares is about tax avoidance & totally irrelevant to what you're suggesting might be preferable to paying themselves a wage should they fancy a nibble.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Well im not. I am focusing on massive changes, year on year, up and down, that should be explained, not least to HMRC. If my expenses in my business fluctuate a lot, local inspector usually wants at least a brief explanation, or would expect me to explain if asked.

So now the auditors & HMRC have missed whatever it is you're attempting to insinuate is happening to EFC's cost base.

 

[roydo]

So now the auditors & HMRC have missed whatever it is you're attempting to insinuate is happening to EFC's cost base.

No, not insinuating anything of the sort. Just dont see why large swings cant be explained. I mean, when Utd sold Ronaldo they made a point of referring to it the following year when the receipts dropped by £80m or so.

I dont subscribe to the idea that anyone is ripping off the club. Like you, I do see this in a professional capacity, so am just interested in what sort of items make up such large changes in OOC.

 

[Dell Boy]

No, not insinuating anything of the sort. Just dont see why large swings cant be explained. I mean, when Utd sold Ronaldo they made a point of referring to it the following year when the receipts dropped by £80m or so.

I dont subscribe to the idea that anyone is ripping off the club. Like you, I do see this in a professional capacity, so am just interested in what sort of items make up such large changes in OOC.

And if that's standard practice for other footy clubs then I agree

 

[roydo]

And if that's standard practice for other footy clubs then I agree

Got no idea if it is, or should be TBH, but when everything else in footy seems to be known, contracts, wages, buyout clauses, transfer fees, matchday revenue, debt levels, interest payments etc etc etc, just seems odd that big changes in operating costs cant, or wont be identified.

 

[Dell Boy]

From tinternet "Other operating income and costs comprise items that are secondary compared to the Group’s principal activities. These items include gains/losses on sale of intangible assets and property, debt provisions, plant and equipment".

On the basis that we regularly spend more than we bring in (to get the best team out on the field) then presumably this OOC will relate to temp overdrafts and loans for bridging between TV payments etc?

If other clubs detail what's what then we should too. But if it just goes to show what a basket case of a business EFC is - tehn what?

 

[roydo]

From tinternet "Other operating income and costs comprise items that are secondary compared to the Group’s principal activities. These items include gains/losses on sale of intangible assets and property, debt provisions, plant and equipment".

On the basis that we regularly spend more than we bring in (to get the best team out on the field) then presumably this OOC will relate to temp overdrafts and loans for bridging between TV payments etc?

If other clubs detail what's what then we should too. But if it just goes to show what a basket case of a business EFC is - tehn what?

It probably is as boring as that sort of stuff!

 

[Goat]

From tinternet "Other operating income and costs comprise items that are secondary compared to the Group’s principal activities. These items include gains/losses on sale of intangible assets and property, debt provisions, plant and equipment".

On the basis that we regularly spend more than we bring in (to get the best team out on the field) then presumably this OOC will relate to temp overdrafts and loans for bridging between TV payments etc?

If other clubs detail what's what then we should too. But if it just goes to show what a basket case of a business EFC is - tehn what?

We have a section for loans and interest on loans.

If we didnt, this would make perfect sense.

 

[davek]

Do other football clubs detail their 'other operating costs'? I'm all for Everton living up to the standard of other clubs.

Obviously there's an irony here that for most foreign owners/takeovers I'm guessing there'd be very little in the way of open accounting but hey ho.

I've got a small business and I'm buggered if I know what my accountant labels into what pile. That's his job to minimise my tax. He talks me through it each quarter but it flies in one ear and out the other.

If it turned out that Kenwright was secretly paying himself a major chunk of cash via this so-called OOC slush fund then I'd be mightily pissed off. But I take it as true that that would be in contrary to company law and just isn't happening here.

Other clubs probably have AGMs where - if need be - concerned supporters can ask those questions. But this is an issue with the club too. Elstone has felt the need to address it because of the dramatic increases there. He's left more questions unanswered than answered by doing so though.

I'm sure a man who can boast about knowing where every penny of the 85p in a pound going to the playing side of the club ends up can also reveal where a whopping 25% of our revenue ends up.

Well I would presume that to be the case.. Every department would have a budget, every penny of each budget would be accounted for, that would all go to the central finance lads and ladettes who then have to create the financial report from that.. That's how most businesses work.. well the ones I have worked in anyway. I have no idea about what the finance guys do and would never claim to in terms of the financial work role but it strikes me that if they did what Davek said above.. separated the 20mil into sub groups then you would just have the same problem but with more headers.
3mil on groundskeeping... what does that mean? are we buying 3mil of Lawnmowers?
It would be all or nothing I would guess or no one would be satisfied.

Well, the very least that could be achieved by doing it that way would be to distinguish from year to year between one off costs that wont be repeated year on year and those that can be expected to recur.

As I mentioned earlier, we wont get that breakdown, because it seems to me clarity is their enemy: it'd bring within the orbit of most people an appreciation of a set of costs that could be gauged by rule of thumb to reality. Far better to have it all vague.