The Wall - stick or twist?

[BlueToff]

Unless we get an actual right back in, we'll have to keep it as it is.
Club doesn't seem to see the need though

Think they do, but it'll be a summer move.

However, it should have been done last year (at the very latest).

 

[TheBigIguana]

Think they do, but it'll be a summer move.

However, it should have been done last year (at the very latest).

We put too much stock in Kenny being able to at least be competent until a permanent solution was found if Seamus lost it. Seamus did lose it but Kenny isn't competent so we've got a nice big hole to fill.

 

[BlueToff]

We put too much stock in Kenny being able to at least be competent until a permanent solution was found if Seamus lost it. Seamus did lose it but Kenny isn't competent so we've got a nice big hole to fill.

It's that lack of succession planning again. We did it with Baines but got lucky with Digne.

 

[TheBigIguana]

It's that lack of succession planning again. We did it with Baines but got lucky with Digne.

It'll bite us again in short order if we aren't careful. The priorities this summer should be making the team better for right now but we do need to be keeping an eye out for Allan and James replacements as they will not be this good forever. Just have it in mind before it is a big problem.

 

[Zatara]

Why do you think football is fundamentally a different sport to the 80's though? You need to score more than the opponents. Thats the basics of the game.

We can't compete with City. There's a moment in moneyball where Brad Pitt says "if we think likes the Yankees in here, we lose to the Yankees out there". It's the same thing. If we try to emulate City, on half the wages we wil lose. We have to find edge don't we? We hve to do things different to them, and probably diferent to percieved wisdom.

The Atletico thing is a better example. My understanding, is they built a side that was snide, horrible to beat and fundamentally very defensive? If we were lookingto try and emulate anyone, they are a good example. You know more than me, but it feels an Atletico manouevre what we have done.

It's a fair point. And it is worth noting, the discussion is really here about swapping 1 fullback in for 1 centre back at this point, and a fullback who's arguably the best in the world. There's a different discussion about right back and Coleman. It's a fair argument.

My contention with all of these things, is that balance in a back 4 is very important. We are discussing hypotheticals here, and hypothetically swapping Digne for Godfrey may not upset the balance, but also it could do. Likewise then shifting Godfrey to right back, and changing 2 positions is more likely to upset the balance. The best back 4's are rarely the best 4 defenders, but they are the players who are comfortable playing together. The whole team looks more balanced with that back 4 defensively.

On a final point, I do think there was a third phase this season. We went from free flowing, and now we are solid and turgid. There was a middle period where we were poor defensively and couldn't score at the other end. We've not improved going forwrd the other way (though look betetr with James in as any team would) but I'm not wholly convinced moving away from solidity is going to easily see us scoring lots more goals again.

There's no doubt balance is the longer term aim here. But whether it's imperaative we do it this season, when we are in the position we are, is an open question to me.

There's no doubt football has evolved, it's quicker, stronger etc. But the principles are the same, it's attack v defence, but all the players are now bigger and stronger. I mean in essence formations in real terms haven't changed that much, we just call them different things. David Beckham would probably do the same things he did 25 years ago for Manchester United, but would line up at rb not rm. Midfielders are expected to sit a lot deeper now and protect defence more, to compensate, whereas that was more the terrain of fullbacks etc.

The issue is, it's not an onward march to a particular idea set. It becomes cyclical. There have been times when more defenisve innovations have come in, as well as more offensive innovations. There's absolutely nothing to say the next innovations won't be having fullbacks who go back to defending (partly to compensate for more wide forwards essetnially being attackers). From a defensive shape standpoint, it makes a lot of sense.

The stuff about competing is partly true in recruitment, but it's also about how you play. You won't beat Manchester City emulating what they do. They have the best coach in the world to do that, and the most money in the world. Christ knows we've tried it, under successive managers. Unfortunately given our position, we are in the terrain of looking at what others do, and spotting their weaknesses, rather than thinking of a plan ourselves (and to me it's no surprise this is where we've had most "success" under Carlo, as hes good at this).

The only team, outside of the top group to win the league in the past 20 years were Leicester, who sat deep, and hit on the break, while relying a bit on moments of genius from Mahrez. Atletico and Spain much the same. I'm not saying it's the only way to win, but it's probably the most logical option presently.

Yes probably true. There moght be an argument that we play him more centrally as a striker. Weight up the cost benefit analysis of how many more goals do we get V what do we lose defensively. That would be the sort of smart thing I'd look to do. Can you play Gomes in midfield instead of Davies who can carry it better etc.

As I think I said earlier my views on the attacking side would be;
1) Get DCL match fit (which we can do)
2) Keep James fit (partially reliant on luck)
3) Get more out of Richarlinson.

How far you can do the 3rd, without sacrificing whayt he gives us defensively is a fair question. I think what you say is certainly a part of it. I do think, for whatever reason his ability to dribble and get shots off has been a bit affected this season.

In fairness to you and your "side" of the argument, getting DCL match fit and essentially using him as an out ball to win free kicks once we get ahead is unlikely to get him scoring lots more. If I'm brutally honest, if we can keep goals down to less than 1 a game, I'm willing to sacrifice offensive play this season. That seems the best chance we have to get to the top 4, rebuild again in the summer and probably re-calibrate the approach.

"Atletico aggressively defend the ball like a dog with any sort of toy you give it"

Diego Simeone

Discipline, organisation, pressing and a deep defence against the stronger teams and trying to grind out results...a higher line, high tempo to pressure and frustrate opponents who are weaker.

Its been 442 or 4411 and when the ball is with the other side then the whole team dashes back into positions in order to follow defensive instructions.

Key with them is that this season theyve adapted again and gone to a 3 at the back a bit as well...also in attack the full backs make it a 2224 formation lol

However, thats because theyve had Simeone a long time now and been building different teams. Theyre all like machines now able to move into position seamlessly.

With us, we can handle the organisation, pressing, desire and play in a similar fashion to Atletico. We can mimick them in a sense but only when we play the deep system.

Against weaker opposition, we havent tried a high line this season...so we could say were perhaps half way there.

If Brands wants 8 defenders in the squad then perhaps we can have this back 4 with 2 more players added who can play a high line and 2 more rotation options. Then our defence can play both styles.

We also have the 1st eleven tools in front bar a real super underrated midfield group like Atletico have had with Koke and Saul Niguez. Also of course Partey and Gabi.

So, if we were to emulate Atletico we would need to master two ways of playing and it seems like were nearly there with one.

 

[catcherintherye]

"Atletico aggressively defend the ball like a dog with any sort of toy you give it"

Diego Simeone

Discipline, organisation, pressing and a deep defence against the stronger teams and trying to grind out results...a higher line, high tempo to pressure and frustrate opponents who are weaker.

Its been 442 or 4411 and when the ball is with the other side then the whole team dashes back into positions in order to follow defensive instructions.

Key with them is that this season theyve adapted again and gone to a 3 at the back a bit as well...also in attack the full backs make it a 2224 formation lol

However, thats because theyve had Simeone a long time now and been building different teams. Theyre all like machines now able to move into position seamlessly.

With us, we can handle the organisation, pressing, desire and play in a similar fashion to Atletico. We can mimick them in a sense but only when we play the deep system.

Against weaker opposition, we havent tried a high line this season...so we could say were perhaps half way there.

If Brands wants 8 defenders in the squad then perhaps we can have this back 4 with 2 more players added who can play a high line and 2 more rotation options. Then our defence can play both styles.

We also have the 1st eleven tools in front bar a real super underrated midfield group like Atletico have had with Koke and Saul Niguez. Also of course Partey and Gabi.

So, if we were to emulate Atletico we would need to master two ways of playing and it seems like were nearly there with one.

I mean you know Atletico far more than me. It's more in the broad sense. Defensive team, horrible to play against, give you nothing. Streetwise, aggressive, big, strong and start every game trying to get a 0 against. Thats the base they build from and have done for 8-10 years under Simeone for me.

I mean maybe they play cb's at fullback, maybe not. I think there is a bigger point in all of this though, about the broad approach as opposed to specifics of how to do it.

It's smart too. They could never emulate outscoring teams like Madrid and Barca could do. Neither can we, so you find an alternative way to play. To a degree Klopp did similar with Dortmund, they outworked teams and did something quite extreme and unusual.

4 at the back is probably that for us. It's working. I stick with it for now. If it stops working I ditch, but it's worth keepign with currently. There can be a review in the summer.

 

[Tipp blue]

Having 4 CB's in there means we have 0 attacking threat from our FB positions. There was a spot yesterday Godfrey had the ball, if he had any attacking threat he could have walked right in to the box because Leicester players went to the middle and to the left and opened a massive hole. Godfrey stopped and passed it back to Digne instead of trying to get forward.

They're good against an attacking side but we need SOME threat going forward. DCL can't make something out of nothing, he needs support. Richarlison used ot be able to but he's cack this season. Only one who can do that is James. Getting a goal then sitting back is a really poor strategy.

That doesn't really bother me, wall at the back, if you don't concede you can't lose.. we need to get rid of the loose cannon in nets, with a decent Keeper and that back 4 limiting opposition to shots from outside the box and we'll keep more clean sheets than not.
Pickford could very well cost us (and Liverpool) champions league next season.

 

[Brisan123]

Keep it. Once we add in Allan and Doucoure then we'll be impregnable and more effective in transitions



Godfrey fits the mould and Holgate has been very good as a RCB in a 3 before.

Don't go all yank on us Zat please

 

[TheBigIguana]

That doesn't really bother me, wall at the back, if you don't concede you can't lose.. we need to get rid of the loose cannon in nets, with a decent Keeper and that back 4 limiting opposition to shots from outside the box and we'll keep more clean sheets than not.
Pickford could very well cost us (and Liverpool) champions league next season.

Don't score you can't win. And realistically you aren't keeping 38 clean sheets. All about balance.

 

[Tipp blue]

Don't score you can't win. And realistically you aren't keeping 38 clean sheets. All about balance.

Realistically you're not going to draw a blank for 38 games either. Having 2 FBs bombing forward leaves you wide open to a counter which we struggle with. Its no coincidence that our form has drastically improved since carlo started playing the 4 CBs.

 

[Quadvod]

A routine 7/10 keeper, week in, week out.

Digne Mina Keane Godfrey

Godfrey can get one of the coveted CB spots when one of Mina/Keane gets injured. It will then be up to him to keep the shirt on his back. Tough on Holgate, but we're a level up on the past few seasons.

I’d like to see that back 4 - tell Godfrey to tuck in when digne goes forward then I’d play allan doucoure with James ahead of them with iwobi right side richy left and Calvert lewin up top.

 

[Zezti]

Think they do, but it'll be a summer move.

However, it should have been done last year (at the very latest).

It absolutely should have been done last window, but if they think it can be left as a summer move then someone doesn't understand how bad the need is. We've had Iwobi and Davies at RWB fgs.
Money spent on a right back now will be directly related to the number of points we get in the 2nd half of the season.

 

[Terrarian]

It's supposed to be entertaining. If people were allowed in the ground, you want to spend hard earned money watching this tripe because I don't.

Again, I love Carlo and I am very pleased and proud he is our manager but the hypocrisy is astounding; if Silva, Koeman or Allardyce were serving this up there would be hell to pay.

I am not having that these professional players, premiership and international players can't play better than this. It served a purpose when everyone was injured but that isn't the case now and it needs punting these tactics they're shocking.

 

[BlueToff]

It's supposed to be entertaining. If people were allowed in the ground, you want to spend hard earned money watching this tripe because I don't.

Again, I love Carlo and I am very pleased and proud he is our manager but the hypocrisy is astounding; if Silva, Koeman or Allardyce were serving this up there would be hell to pay.

I am not having that these professional players, premiership and international players can't play better than this. It served a purpose when everyone was injured but that isn't the case now and it needs punting these tactics they're shocking.

Erm, I think having our best two midfielders out yesterday was why we had to try and stay compact. It almost worked.

I don't mind the style or tactics at all, it's the issue of not getting on the front foot early in the second half of matches. That's as much on the players as it is on the tactics.

I do think Carlo can be a bit more proactive with his subs, but we need better, more mobile players, too.

We've taken 16 points from the last 21 on offer. Not bad going.

 

[Dymak]

It's supposed to be entertaining. If people were allowed in the ground, you want to spend hard earned money watching this tripe because I don't.

Again, I love Carlo and I am very pleased and proud he is our manager but the hypocrisy is astounding; if Silva, Koeman or Allardyce were serving this up there would be hell to pay.

I am not having that these professional players, premiership and international players can't play better than this. It served a purpose when everyone was injured but that isn't the case now and it needs punting these tactics they're shocking.

I disagree, and I think many others would too. We were a Pickford away from beating the almighty title challenging Leicester both home and away. 6 points taken off the almighty Leicester City!

Despite having the crappest goalkeeper in the league, we are still, technically, in the title race FFS (winning the games in hand would have us equal with the almighty Leicester) who we should have beaten with our 3rd choice central midfield yesterday!

Most of this title challenging form has come through improving the defence to the best level seen in years!

This idea that we’d rather have seen Gary Ablett and Matt Jackson running up the wing rather than doing enough to prevent Giggs and Scholes from making us lose our 4th cup final in a row is nonsense. We had to play defensively, and it was ultimately big Dave Watson and Neville Southall that gave us our last taste of success.

I don’t want to see fancy play in an advanced wing position, when it just leads to the other team counter attacking and us losing. Let us do the counter attacking, and more importantly, the winning!