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2020/21 Thierry Small

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catcherintherye said:
Yes I mean there is the issue of an injury, but if he's not doing a proper pre-season (and that's his intention) he won't be that fit if he moves on.

My perception would be an agent is perhaps trying to tell him to make it acrimonious with Everton and maybe they will lower their demands when his new club come in. I know before it goes to arbitration there is an opportunity for both clubs to come to an agreement. While arbitration fees tend to be lower, they do often contain fairly hefty sell on %, normally around the 20-25% mark (I think Harvey Elliot for example went for 6m but has a sell on of around 25%).

If the view of a buying club is, we could sell this lad for £20m quid but we have to pay £5m of that back to Everton, plus say £3-£4m up front it becomes a less attractive deal. The overall cost is around £9m quid and you will clear £15m from it. But you will have a hefty agents fee, young player sign on fee and probably first team level wages on top for 3 years and when you start factoring that it, it probably means you don't "break even" in real terms. And that's with him being a reasonable success and selling for £20m.

That's just my theory though. If he wants to make a position that Everton should let him go, when he knows he can just leave next month, it's a bit of an irrational move.
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If hes been offered £5k by us (for example) and £20k elsewhere he's probably thinking to sit back till Aug 1st and sign elsewhere.

He'd be a millionaire on that deal of course...unless he got a bad injury in the next 2 weeks!

We should be matching it if we rate him highly -- or it may be another Garbutt situation.

I dont think we get anything if he moves overseas do we?

If we got £6mil for him and 25% sell on from someone like Dortmund then its not a bad deal considering -- if United then they wont sell if hes good.
 
Zatara said:
If hes been offered £5k by us (for example) and £20k elsewhere he's probably thinking to sit back till Aug 1st and sign elsewhere.

He'd be a millionaire on that deal of course...unless he got a bad injury in the next 2 weeks!

We should be matching it if we rate him highly -- or it may be another Garbutt situation.

I dont think we get anything if he moves overseas do we?

If we got £6mil for him and 25% sell on from someone like Dortmund then its not a bad deal considering -- if United then they wont sell if hes good.
Click to expand...

Yes I do wonder if it is something akin to the above. The reality is, your Chelsea's, Liverpool's and to a degree United's at this world will likely offer very good contracts in and around the ballpark above to players. I'm sure I read somewhere that Harvey Elliot's initial deal was around 50k p/w, so a 16 year old. That may include some sign ons being factored in.

The obvious answer is we match the 20k p/w but the genera, understanding is that while he's probably our brightest prospect he's not so far ahead of say Onyango, Price & Welch in the pecking order, and maybe not even Lewis Dobbin. There's a lad in the 16's who is more highly rated as well. So it starts to become difficult to start paying it for 1 player as it means you have to start matching it across the board.

I would imagine 20k p/w if about right for what a United may offer him. I also think there's likely to be a 7 figure sum for his agent to move him, and probably a 7 figure sign on fee for the player too. It's difficult, as from that contract he may be in a position where he never has to work again. We will make assurances, but he may look at say Ryan Ledson, who was perhaps even more highly rated, and see at 24 he has probably made maybe as much from those 6 or 7 years as what he may be able to make from 1 year, or a sign on fee. It's a big temptation.

As for the abroad situation, the answer is I'm not sure. I don't think we do, but maybe Brexit has changed rules slightly. I suppose we paid a nominal fee for Nkounkou so that would suggest there might be a fee.

I would be surprised if the fee would be set at £6m for him, but I could well see a 20%-25% sell on fee attached.
 

Terrarian said:
fancy wanting to give a 16 year old with half an appearance £20k a week and you wonder why they lose hunger
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I don't know if you read Howard Kendall's book, but he says exactly this with Cadamateri. They gave him a massive contract after the scoring run he had as a 17/18 year old, and he went from being a quite down to earth, very driven teenager and the next week he was coming in, in a massive 4 by 4 car, with music blurring out, and the desire went almost overnight (as did the performance level).

It's the big fall back of the PL really. We give these kids loads of money, without any game time, and wonder why that desire to keep getting better goes. Look if he gets that sort of contract, at one level I can understand it. He will be made for life. But it seems a poor long term career move.
 
catcherintherye said:
I don't know if you read Howard Kendall's book, but he says exactly this with Cadamateri. They gave him a massive contract after the scoring run he had as a 17/18 year old, and he went from being a quite down to earth, very driven teenager and the next week he was coming in, in a massive 4 by 4 car, with music blurring out, and the desire went almost overnight (as did the performance level).

It's the big fall back of the PL really. We give these kids loads of money, without any game time, and wonder why that desire to keep getting better goes. Look if he gets that sort of contract, at one level I can understand it. He will be made for life. But it seems a poor long term career move.
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I need to read Howards book actually and Nevs. It's a problem, I've mentioned it before but a fair few years ago there was a documentary called no hunger in paradise, about these kids getting ridiculous contracts at young ages and then disappearing. In those circumstances it's those with the correct attitude will make it, billy big bollocks will just fade into obscurity.
 
Terrarian said:
I need to read Howards book actually and Nevs. It's a problem, I've mentioned it before but a fair few years ago there was a documentary called no hunger in paradise, about these kids getting ridiculous contracts at young ages and then disappearing. In those circumstances it's those with the correct attitude will make it, billy big bollocks will just fade into obscurity.
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Yes definitely mate. I think it's been a big problem for our younger players. It's why in a strange way,I have a lot of respect for the younger lads who have probably turned their backs on big contracts to go abroad and play football on perhaps less money to start.

I mean there's that kid Rhian Brewster is another one. Wearing the CL medal, when he played absolutely no part in it. Just an absolute muppet really.
 

catcherintherye said:
Yes I do wonder if it is something akin to the above. The reality is, your Chelsea's, Liverpool's and to a degree United's at this world will likely offer very good contracts in and around the ballpark above to players. I'm sure I read somewhere that Harvey Elliot's initial deal was around 50k p/w, so a 16 year old. That may include some sign ons being factored in.

The obvious answer is we match the 20k p/w but the genera, understanding is that while he's probably our brightest prospect he's not so far ahead of say Onyango, Price & Welch in the pecking order, and maybe not even Lewis Dobbin. There's a lad in the 16's who is more highly rated as well. So it starts to become difficult to start paying it for 1 player as it means you have to start matching it across the board.

I would imagine 20k p/w if about right for what a United may offer him. I also think there's likely to be a 7 figure sum for his agent to move him, and probably a 7 figure sign on fee for the player too. It's difficult, as from that contract he may be in a position where he never has to work again. We will make assurances, but he may look at say Ryan Ledson, who was perhaps even more highly rated, and see at 24 he has probably made maybe as much from those 6 or 7 years as what he may be able to make from 1 year, or a sign on fee. It's a big temptation.

As for the abroad situation, the answer is I'm not sure. I don't think we do, but maybe Brexit has changed rules slightly. I suppose we paid a nominal fee for Nkounkou so that would suggest there might be a fee.

I would be surprised if the fee would be set at £6m for him, but I could well see a 20%-25% sell on fee attached.
Click to expand...

It comes back around to posters in the youth thread talking about City giving free private education to the kids etc...

For me it comes down to the same thing as the 1st team.

Moshiri wants us to be "challenging at the top of the league" with a £55mil net spend -- while being hundreds of millions in squad value behind our competitiors. Nonsensical.

We want to be bringing through or signing top youth prospects but dont seem to he offering them the right incentives to get them or keep them. Virginia, Bowler, Gibson and Adeniran seem to be the last batch bought who have outgrown the u23s...not exactly a beacon to shine when trying for other players.

The only shining light i think seems to be Branthwaite who (in hindsight) should have been around the squad last season getting gametime and experience.

This whole Small situation seems to reflect on the entire youth setup when looking at the failures going back years.
 
Zatara said:
If hes been offered £5k by us (for example) and £20k elsewhere he's probably thinking to sit back till Aug 1st and sign elsewhere.

He'd be a millionaire on that deal of course...unless he got a bad injury in the next 2 weeks!

We should be matching it if we rate him highly -- or it may be another Garbutt situation.

I dont think we get anything if he moves overseas do we?

If we got £6mil for him and 25% sell on from someone like Dortmund then its not a bad deal considering -- if United then they wont sell if hes good.
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He's only on scholar terms with us now Zat. Unless he signs a pro contract we won't be receiving any fee for him apart from some tribunal fee if he moves to another club in England. that won't be a great deal.

If I was him I'd be looking towards Germany and the likes of Dortmund and RBL.
 
Terrarian said:
I was in the armed forces at 17 mate, think my skills were a tad more important thanks for saying my skills aren't valuable, glad I don't think about our forces like that.

The main point here is respect, nobody is denying him a move if he wants a move, it's the not turning up bit that grates on people.
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Respect is a two way street then.
 

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