Today’s Football 2020/21 Season

[number4.]

With the cavaet being that I haven't seen last nights incidents, I have to say VAR may still be rubbish, but it's miles better than last season, where it was an utter joke.

To me it's made some big calls correctly. The Mane offside against us for one, without VAR we get cheated out of that game.

There was probably a window where if they did the right things, it could work. That hasn't happened and I don't think it can be saved now. These things include;
1) Showing all incidents live on screens as they do in other sports
2) Having the referee "miked" up to the VAR official so we can see what they are asking them (ah la rugby)
3) Probably having some sort of "challenge" system, whereby a teams gets challenge per game or whatever. If the refs decision is sustained it's lost.
4) Tolerance for the officials brought in. Outside of offside which is right v wrong (and lets not forget, we have also had some dubious offsides goals not given, but I have avoided complaining as it's a black or white) in terms of broader decisions it should not be about VAR making a decision, but overturning a clear mistake.

I have banged on about these things from the start. Very few people wanted to know. Now other supoorters fans jump on the bandwagon and I'm of the view it's done and it's here now.

As a final aside, if they were to remove it, as it's essentially proven to have corrupted football, all results from the seasons it's been used would also have to be scrapped, as a bear minimum.

All very reasoned as always Catcher - If I was to play devils advocate with the Mane one (and the bamford one), I would question why an offside line is coming from and elbow rather than a clearer scoring part of the body, we have seen similar in reverse twice with Harry Maguire, where they were lined to a foot, even though it certainly appear to the naked eye that a shoulder or arm was closer to the defending goal. VAR or no VAR, you are still relying on an individual applying the rule correctly, or at least consistently, which doesnt appear to be happening.

The macro problem is the majority of rules in football are subjective rather than objective; they require an understanding of the game and cannot be simply governed by black and white laws; a clear example of this is the Villa hand ball against Southampton last week. It was clear handball & a red in old terms, but because it grazed his thigh first, its now not a handball, denying Southampton a pen and probably a red.

 

[catcherintherye]

It also correctly ruled that van dijk was offside when he collided with Pickford. Had VAR not been in use, the ref would've overruled the linesman and buckled under pressure from their players to give a penalty. VAR has, on the whole, removed these injustices.

I thought that. But actually the ref and linesman called that right, as did VAR. It was offside, the whistle had gone and so no infraction had taken place. It was an example of very good refereeing in what was a mixed performance from him (where he missed 3 clear red card offences committed by Liverpool players who should have been down to 8 men).

 

[catcherintherye]

All very reasoned as always Catcher - If I was to play devils advocate with the Mane one (and the bamford one), I would question why an offside line is coming from and elbow rather than a clearer scoring part of the body, we have seen similar in reverse twice with Harry Maguire, where they were lined to a foot, even though it certainly appear to the naked eye that a shoulder or arm was closer to the defending goal. VAR or no VAR, you are still relying on an individual applying the rule correctly, or at least consistently, which doesnt appear to be happening.

The macro problem is the majority of rules in football are subjective rather than objective; they require an understanding of the game and cannot be simply governed by black and white laws; a clear example of this is the Villa hand ball against Southampton last week. It was clear handball & a red in old terms, but because it grazed his thigh first, its now not a handball, denying Southampton a pen and probably a red.

I thought they took the line from the upper arm? The rules are the rules, where you draw the line from (I believe upper arm in Mane's case) is obviously open for question. But when I hear people say "oh just draw it from the foot" or "make sure the lines don't overlap" etc you can see that no progress will be made. Wherever you draw the lines from, whether you want day light or not etc there is always going to become a point where it goes from offside to onside and vice versa. But objectively, offside is one of the few things that you can get "right" or "wrong".

As for the handball situation, I will be honest, I didn't see that incident, but know that handball is actually a really difficult rule. They seem to keep changing it, which doesn't help. There needs to be a clear set of rules, and allow that to be stuck too.

The other one that gets everyones goat is diving. This should just be chnaged by taking an intepretation that if you stay on your feet you should, and the level of force as to be deemed as enough to knock you off balance. If a player is knocked off balance but keeps their balance and tries to shoot, they can have a goal, but if they don't, start pulling them back. Essentially start rewarding the behaviours you want to see rather than worrying about how to penalise the ones we don't.

 

[PhilM]

He's in my lad's fantasy team lol, he managed to score -6 which is an achievement.

If only he gave the same rate of points per minutes over an entire game: he'd be on -270 points.

 

[Connor]

 

[PITA]

Yeah getting obliterated twice is a humiliating debacle worthy of sacking. But mitigating factors have to contemplated as well. Southampton have been ravaged by extensive injuries, I believe up to 9 players. Also lost a green player on his debut due to a callous challenge in the first minutes. Then they were eventually down to 9 players , a thrashing was unavoidable . Still pathetic but it didn't happen in vacuum.

What ‘callous challenge’? I’ve got Sky Sports News on, checked the BBC website (on my phone) and no real mention.
Surely if it was that bad it would be all over the media, questions asked in Parliament, a book of condolences started by the local rag.
I think that you’re making this up.

 

[Curtis]

What ‘callous challenge’? I’ve got Sky Sports News on, checked the BBC website (on my phone) and no real mention.
Surely if it was that bad it would be all over the media, questions asked in Parliament, a book of condolences started by the local rag.
I think that you’re making this up.

It was extremely reckless in my opinion ,left a boot mark on Mctominays upper thigh. He didn't get injured so I'm assuming that's why there wasn't a lot of scrutiny in the media.

 

[Zezti]

 

[PITA]

It was extremely reckless in my opinion ,left a boot mark on Mctominays upper thigh. He didn't get injured so I'm assuming that's why there wasn't a lot of scrutiny in the media.

You’re generous. I thought that it was because it wasn’t Saint Virgil on the end of the tackle.

 

[PaulPowersTash]

It was extremely reckless in my opinion ,left a boot mark on Mctominays upper thigh. He didn't get injured so I'm assuming that's why there wasn't a lot of scrutiny in the media.

McTominay's had it coming.
He dishes enough of it out and gets away with murder.

 

[Curtis]

I never really pay that much attention to Mctominay , so he's pretty underhanded? Is he on par with Jonjoe shelvey?

 

[Curtis]

You’re generous. I thought that it was because it wasn’t Saint Virgil on the end of the tackle.

Haha I'm surprised the media haven't done a prayer vigil for ol Virgil.

 

[number4.]

I thought they took the line from the upper arm? The rules are the rules, where you draw the line from (I believe upper arm in Mane's case) is obviously open for question. But when I hear people say "oh just draw it from the foot" or "make sure the lines don't overlap" etc you can see that no progress will be made. Wherever you draw the lines from, whether you want day light or not etc there is always going to become a point where it goes from offside to onside and vice versa. But objectively, offside is one of the few things that you can get "right" or "wrong".

As for the handball situation, I will be honest, I didn't see that incident, but know that handball is actually a really difficult rule. They seem to keep changing it, which doesn't help. There needs to be a clear set of rules, and allow that to be stuck too.

The other one that gets everyones goat is diving. This should just be chnaged by taking an intepretation that if you stay on your feet you should, and the level of force as to be deemed as enough to knock you off balance. If a player is knocked off balance but keeps their balance and tries to shoot, they can have a goal, but if they don't, start pulling them back. Essentially start rewarding the behaviours you want to see rather than worrying about how to penalise the ones we don't.

Offside - as long as you have human's doing the lines, there is an element of error so it is not simply right or wrong unfortunately. Lines are being drawn from the wrong parts of the body etc; for me there are two options
1) Dont show the lines as per the CL and leave it to VAR
2) Draw one line from defenders "extremity" & if the one line doesnt show clear offside, give the advantage to striker.

Handball - there is clear rules, that's the problem, it doesnt take into account the nuances of football any more. Look at the villa example as a reference of Spirit of the law V actual law.

Diving - completely agree and I think this is already the rule in principle, but refs simply dont do it. Whether it be Salah, Grealish, James, or anyone else, you cannot blame a player for going down when the feel contact, you need to blame poor referring for forcing them to do it. Blatent diving should be a retrospective one game ban if not given in game

 

[Bohemian Toffee]

He's in my lad's fantasy team lol, he managed to score -6 which is an achievement.

He's in mine, well pleased with him

 

[catcherintherye]

Offside - as long as you have human's doing the lines, there is an element of error so it is not simply right or wrong unfortunately. Lines are being drawn from the wrong parts of the body etc; for me there are two options
1) Dont show the lines as per the CL and leave it to VAR
2) Draw one line from defenders "extremity" & if the one line doesnt show clear offside, give the advantage to striker.

Handball - there is clear rules, that's the problem, it doesnt take into account the nuances of football any more. Look at the villa example as a reference of Spirit of the law V actual law.

Diving - completely agree and I think this is already the rule in principle, but refs simply dont do it. Whether it be Salah, Grealish, James, or anyone else, you cannot blame a player for going down when the feel contact, you need to blame poor referring for forcing them to do it. Blatent diving should be a retrospective one game ban if not given in game

But I mean they are not drawing the lines with Crayons. I'd imagine they have access to a ruler, so that should be fine.

I take the point about what part of the body, but you're still going to have a human drawing a line.

Whatever the faults of said human, they will have a better idea than me, you or anyone else shouting from our living room that it looks closer. I am frustrated, the goals v Leeds and Rotherham looked v close to me, but we have to get on with it. It's as close to black and white as we can get.