2019/20 Tom Davies

[orly]

Not really mate. I'm not trying to have a pop at Directors of football or make out I know more than anyone. However the perception by some people that loans are the all singing solution to youth development I don't think stacks up. I'm happy to see the evidence of players who've benefitted from loans coming back to Everton, but I just don't see it.

As a broader issue, my contention is more with the stockpiling of players by top teams. In fairness thats not really something we engage in. I think it's cynical and bad for the game. Young players should consider that when they choose the clubs they go too.

It's a good source of financial income for the parent club, it is the ultimate test as to whether a player will actually make it without actually having to put them unready into the first team setup. Our starting right back of many years standing a cracking example. Or Leon Osman, of several hundred appearances.

But no no, you and Walter Mitty definitely know better than Marcel Brands. Perhaps we should throw them in for the Cups, go out straight away and watch everyone bleat about not giving it a go. Or when we are in the Europa League, play to the gantry like that idiot Unsworth, throw a few in like Feeney and Baningame against Atalanta at home and destroy their confidence permanently.

 

[orly]

I think the gap between U23 level and first team in the PL is creating an almost impossible situation for clubs. Without loans there is no way of developing anyone for your first team unless they are really really exceptional. Those types are few and far between.

It also spectacularly fails to note that the Bundesliga is a dreadful league, so throwing in a few youngsters is fine because ultimately it's not really going to matter.

 

[catcherintherye]

I think the gap between U23 level and first team in the PL is creating an almost impossible situation for clubs. Without loans there is no way of developing anyone for your first team unless they are really really exceptional. Those types are few and far between.

Yes thats fair. I just think though, the best players go into the first team and play/train. Rooney, Vaughan, Rodwell, Barkley etc. The blunt truth has to be if you're not knocking on the door at 19 you're unlikely to be.

Loans can be effective, but to me a lot seem to see a player regress or at best stand still. In those instances it would be better for the player to move on.

 

[Bluestar]

Yes thats fair. I just think though, the best players go into the first team and play/train. Rooney, Vaughan, Rodwell, Barkley etc. The blunt truth has to be if you're not knocking on the door at 19 you're unlikely to be.

Loans can be effective, but to me a lot seem to see a player regress or at best stand still. In those instances it would be better for the player to move on.

This seems to be true for most players that Everton loan out. However Chelsea seem to have done well loaning players out - Lukaku, Zouma etc
I do take your point, but we have been spectacularly bad at placing players. Chelsea have managed to have young players ready for lower PL teams whilst we have been loaning into the championship. There had been a difference in standard!

 

[catcherintherye]

It's a good source of financial income for the parent club, it is the ultimate test as to whether a player will actually make it without actually having to put them unready into the first team setup. Our starting right back of many years standing a cracking example. Or Leon Osman, of several hundred appearances.

But no no, you and Walter Mitty definitely know better than Marcel Brands. Perhaps we should throw them in for the Cups, go out straight away and watch everyone bleat about not giving it a go. Or when we are in the Europa League, play to the gantry like that idiot Unsworth, throw a few in like Feeney and Baningame against Atalanta at home and destroy their confidence permanently.

Yes it is, and to a degree I think it is exploited by top clubs to the point where I'm not sure it does the players much good. I can understand why Everton would want to partake in it, but would say, until we establish ourselves as a top side we will probably struggle to see the full benefits of it.

I agree both Coleman and Osman benefitted from it, I acknowledged that in the original post. I also outlined some mitigating factors that make them both, to a certain degree, unique cases.

I've no idea who walter mitty is in this analogy, are you referencing @Eggs ? Either way I am not sure he is saying he knows more than Brands and I certainly don't believe that. I see him as one of the most astute guys at the club and one of the best in his field in the league. As you aptly put it, I'm a guy who writes verbose opinions on an internet forum.

Surely the people who think they know better than Brands, would be the ones who are critical of his decision not to loan out young players in our under 23's? Or hold the belief that they won't develop unless they are loaned?

As it happens I am in broad agreement with Brands approach. If the right loan is available we need to make use of it, but you can't just loan every player over 18 who's not in the first team out as it's fanciful.

It goes with our saying, but I don't think we should be throwing most of our under 23's team into cup games and the experience of David Unsworths brief tenure shows the majority will be a long way off playing for the first team. I think we have to be realistic enough to say, in all honesty it will be the exception who makes it to the first team squad, as opposed to a whole bunch at once.

 

[catcherintherye]

This seems to be true for most players that Everton loan out. However Chelsea seem to have done well loaning players out - Lukaku, Zouma etc
I do take your point, but we have been spectacularly bad at placing players. Chelsea have managed to have young players ready for lower PL teams whilst we have been loaning into the championship. There had been a difference in standard!

Chelsea's players are a much higher calibre to begin with though. I mean Lukaku and Zouma were considered amongst the best in their age group. We have strongish sides at youth level, certainly in the top 10 of the country and most of the time the top 6, but it's not realistic to expect each player to be able to kick on.

There is also a question, of who is going to take said players. The club have employed Joe Royle to try to look after this aspect, and even he struggled to square the circle. While I think you can always make improvements, I'd also say there ought to be an honest evaluation of the concrete situation we find, which is most clubs championship level and above are not going to be interested in taking most of our players at under 23 level and making them regular parts.

 

[Bluestar]

Chelsea's players are a much higher calibre to begin with though. I mean Lukaku and Zouma were considered amongst the best in their age group. We have strongish sides at youth level, certainly in the top 10 of the country and most of the time the top 6, but it's not realistic to expect each player to be able to kick on.

There is also a question, of who is going to take said players. The club have employed Joe Royle to try to look after this aspect, and even he struggled to square the circle. While I think you can always make improvements, I'd also say there ought to be an honest evaluation of the concrete situation we find, which is most clubs championship level and above are not going to be interested in taking most of our players at under 23 level and making them regular parts.

Sadly, I agree.
However, we do seem to have had some promising youngsters stall. They may have been not good enough, or they have been failed by the system.
Sending talented youngsters to sides playing kick n rush is not great development.

 

[catcherintherye]

Sadly, I agree.
However, we do seem to have had some promising youngsters stall. They may have been not good enough, or they have been failed by the system.
Sending talented youngsters to sides playing kick n rush is not great development.

Some loans clearly work. However I am sceptical of the idea that loans are a panacea to all the problems.

There is a wider question though which you rightly highlight, and that is, over a period of time why do Everton players not kick on much between ages 18-24 (and I'm not talking the fringe lads in the reserves, but actually first team players). This is an area we seem to struggle.

 

[AsiaAsia82]

I still think we should follow the same plan as with JJ Kenny.
Loan him out to an inferior but technical league to rebuild confidence where he either sinks or swims but also puts him in the shop window, I’m not sure sending to the championship with too many games and no guarantee of playing helps at all.

 

[Bluestar]

It also spectacularly fails to note that the Bundesliga is a dreadful league, so throwing in a few youngsters is fine because ultimately it's not really going to matter.

It’s interesting though that our sausage eating friends will still win the World Cup though. Perhaps this time they will develop the yoof of Engerland for us?

 

[BornBlue76]

For what it worth, my 2 cents, the loan system to me is a marketing tool we use to try sell players on to other clubs or give them exposure ... we have been very poor at actually selling our players though and they seem to be in the endless summer loop of loan after loan.

Hopefully Brands will sort this out soon we have huge bottle necks in the youth side.

Davies though.. should be getting game time. I used to say if my boys had the talent one day I would want them at the Everton Academy... now.. not on your life. (Turns out they a chip off the old block and have none). If you want your boy to play for a league 1 outfit we’re the club for you though.

 

[Blue Roo]

The best loan in recent years is JJK - if you take into account that Seamus is still the man, which imo he is.
1. Its giving us a chance to look at Sidibe without the risk of fattening the roster and potentially worsening the overall problem.
2. While at the same time giving JJK much needed game time to find out if he's the real deal, which imo is still undecided.
Its not often you can make things fit that neatly.
If we had bought Sidibe (too big a risk with injuries etc) or another player then decision should be to sell JJK.
At this stage he is really the only player you'd do this with. Dowell for example wan't a direct replacement for a first team player.
But would have no problem giving a very small proportion of Everton's youth this type of leeway in the years going forward, if a similar Sidibe type deal can be arranged.

Davies is obviously not in the same boat. A loan is nonsensical. If its a case of needing more game time then he goes to another club.
He is probably 4th back up to Sig, Iwobi and Bernard in the 10
and back up to Delph, JP, Gomes, Schneiderlin for the 6 and 8
On that basis he should stay. He may by seasons end have pushed Scneiderlin out of that spot.
By the end of next season we should know where he's really at and what's to be done.

 

[KaiserEFC]

Must be a bit crap seeing your mates from the youth setup getting called up to the national team whilst you’re sat there with people considerably younger than you.

 

[sharkey1001]

Not really mate. I'm not trying to have a pop at Directors of football or make out I know more than anyone. However the perception by some people that loans are the all singing solution to youth development I don't think stacks up. I'm happy to see the evidence of players who've benefitted from loans coming back to Everton, but I just don't see it.

As a broader issue, my contention is more with the stockpiling of players by top teams. In fairness thats not really something we engage in. I think it's cynical and bad for the game. Young players should consider that when they choose the clubs they go too.

Stockpile them high and wide i say!!!! As we progress it will only be the pinnacle of the youth team that stand a chance. Gone are the days of Barlow, McAleney and JP Kissock!
Loan them out then sell them on for a decent profit - thats the model we need

 

[sharkey1001]

Must be a bit crap seeing your mates from the youth setup getting called up to the national team whilst you’re sat there with people considerably younger than you.

Davies was very highly-rated in the England & Everton youth teams. Missed out on the U-20 world cup win because he played regularly for Koeman's team in the back-end of that season and they wanted to rest him. Since then he has been on a massive downward trajectory (downward, not stalling). Not sure his head is right, always look like he has just had a massive sesh.