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Usmanov

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PeregrineT said:
You really dont understand even the basics of finances. Why in the world would someone sit 500 million of their money on an asset, when they could borrow 500 million at 3.5%, and use their 500 million in investments getting them a 5-6% return. Saving 3.5% is a terrible rate of return for their money. You start with 500 million:

Option A: You put all 500 million into asset. 500 million loan over 10 years at 3.5% means paying 93 million in interest, so you save 93 million. At the end of 10 years, you have 500 million in cash plus asset.

Option B: You get 500 million loan at 3.5%, and at the end of 10 years have paid 93 million in interest. You invest 500 million in another asset, and get a 5% return. At the end of 10 years you have 814 million. Minus the 93 million in interest, at the end of 10 years you have 722 million in cash plus asset.

722 million > 500 million.
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I do understand finance.

What I don't understand is people trying to equate financial prudence with making £350m in interest free soft loans. Moshiri hasn't invested £450 odd million at a return of 5-6% he has used it to buy 77.2% of Everton. What do you think that is currently worth ?
 
gwladysnight said:
Bosman was about the freedom of movement of workers. Are you suggesting that making a judgement regarding the value of a sponsorship has anything to do with Freedom of movement of workers ?

Regarding Usmanov of course the won't be a problem if Usmanov's sponsorship stays roughly in line with what other similar clubs get. That is the whole point of fair value. What we need to do is to get much better at making the most of our resources. Increasing revenue, recruiting better and above all showing patience. Which means we will stop paying tens of millions to get rid of managers.

We can have a brilliant future but we need to stop excusing the poor management of the Club. that means we need to stop pretending that Moshiri or Usmanov means we can continue to be run badly.
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Well Bosman was actually about the rules that governed football being incredibly flimsy and being thrown out once they contravened any aspect, however niche or illogical it seemed within football of a country's law. Thats the point. No matter how many contracts or agreements are signed, they pale into insignificance in front of the law of a country.

There are laws around business freedom to sponsor who they like. It may be that some regulation may be allowed from the PL, in very extreme cases (though I'm doubtful) if it were tested in a court of law, however there is an awful lot of leeway.

On your 2nd point, we agree. As yet he has provided us nothing close to getting to that parameter. We are the 4th most successful club in English football. As yet his sponsorship value are a long way of being 4th highest in terms of value. When they are, then a serious conversation can begin to be had. That would allow us to have potentially hundreds of millions of pounds per season available to us in sponsorship (for various things) and still absolutely fine morally, legally and principally (in your eyes too). I can't see why anybody would not want such a situation.

I agree with you, this needs to be done in conjunction with better performance. The two things can happen simultaneously. However within this discussion, there does have to be an acknowledgement that a club with our commercial weakness is not going to magically catch up to the 5-6 clubs above us that quickly. So if we want to continue maintaining the current wage spend we will probably need a little more than just improving the commercial performance (particularly in the short term) as this is a longer term change.
 
gwladysnight said:
I do understand finance.

What I don't understand is people trying to equate financial prudence with making £350m in interest free soft loans. Moshiri hasn't invested £450 odd million at a return of 5-6% he has used it to buy 77.2% of Everton. What do you think that is currently worth ?
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He has an investment portfolio though. Thats the point. He will invest in other things. Fix the borrowing at 3.5% (seems about right) for a long period, and use the liquidity on projects that generate far more.

As for his investment, I suspect on the ground being built, Everton's value will be substantially more than he has put in.
 

gwladysnight said:
The first breach regarded payments to players signed pre 2010, the £350m stadium naming rights deal and a dispute over £47m of IP rights.

The second charge relates to issues uncovered from the email leaks. In essence that City have misled UEFA over the sources of Sponsorship.

Bizarrely City put in an appeal before the CFCB an independent panel of judges and lawyers had even reached a verdict. Unpredictably CAS immediately through out the appeal.
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Ok. So how per year was this stadium naming rights deal?

On the 2nd point, as long as we don't mislead anyone and we are transparent we will avoid the 2nd charge, right?
 
blueblue said:
We cannot be penalised just because we are Everton... even though it seems like it sometimes.

We will have breached FFP rules or we won't, if there is any ambiguity in the rules then you will almost definitely see the courts being asked to decide what is right or wrong.
I think we have seen the rules are not crystal clear and it will be fascinating to see how the injection of 30 m by USM will be regarded.
If we do now have a Moshiri/Usmanov double act I think they will want to force their way into the top four as quickly as possible and that means investing a lot of money into the club and breaking or at least twisting the rules completely out of shape.
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If we get found guilty of it, it will not be because of that £30m payment. There is no basis to charge the club for that.
 
gwladysnight said:
Please explain why a couple of billionaires are paying an interest rate of 3.5% when they have supposedly unlimited funds.
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No one has unlimited funds, by the stadium being paid on the tick it allows funds to be put into the team. No one pays for a stadium outright and then invests another 500 million into the team.

Check what happened with Spurs, Arsenal and so on.
 

gwladysnight said:
I think people need to make up their mind. Do they want Moshiri to act as a financially prudent accountant or do they want him to act as an unhinged maverick who doesn't care how much dough he blows. You can't have both.
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Are you still harping on?! I’ve read enough of your drivel and negativity on here in last 48 hours to last me a life time.

Get over it and move on! And preferably stop ruining this thread.
 
catcherintherye said:
Well Bosman was actually about the rules that governed football being incredibly flimsy and being thrown out once they contravened any aspect, however niche or illogical it seemed within football of a country's law. Thats the point. No matter how many contracts or agreements are signed, they pale into insignificance in front of the law of a country.
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Bosman was about Freedom of movement. Which means you trying to bring up a country's law is hysterical. The whole point is that freedom of movement within the EU supersedes an individual Country's laws.

catcherintherye said:
There are laws around business freedom to sponsor who they like. It may be that some regulation may be allowed from the PL, in very extreme cases (though I'm doubtful) if it were tested in a court of law, however there is an awful lot of leeway.
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The FA and UEFA aren't deciding who can sponsor who. They just have very clear rules about associated sponsorship and market value.

catcherintherye said:
On your 2nd point, we agree. As yet he has provided us nothing close to getting to that parameter. We are the 4th most successful club in English football. As yet his sponsorship value are a long way of being 4th highest in terms of value. When they are, then a serious conversation can begin to be had. That would allow us to have potentially hundreds of millions of pounds per season available to us in sponsorship (for various things) and still absolutely fine morally, legally and principally (in your eyes too). I can't see why anybody would not want such a situation.
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You are missing one blindingly obvious point if we were capable of attracting the 4th highest sponsorship deals then we wouldn't need fake ones in the first place. The assessors will look at what our previous deals were worth and what other companies were prepared ot offer us.


catcherintherye said:
I agree with you, this needs to be done in conjunction with better performance. The two things can happen simultaneously. However within this discussion, there does have to be an acknowledgement that a club with our commercial weakness is not going to magically catch up to the 5-6 clubs above us that quickly. So if we want to continue maintaining the current wage spend we will probably need a little more than just improving the commercial performance (particularly in the short term) as this is a longer term change.
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You have contradicted yourself. How can you come up with us being the fourth most successful club and deserving of the 4th biggest commercial revenues and then talk about our commercial weakness.
 
gwladysnight said:
I do understand finance.

What I don't understand is people trying to equate financial prudence with making £350m in interest free soft loans. Moshiri hasn't invested £450 odd million at a return of 5-6% he has used it to buy 77.2% of Everton. What do you think that is currently worth ?
Click to expand...

Well no, he used 150m to buy 77.2% of Everton.

The other 350m hasnt gained him any more shares.

I reckon Everton is currently worth around 200m.
 

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