2015 post UK election discussion

[evilwebby]

Well, I've been well negged, but it's not exactly like I didn't expect it.
Think about this.

The Left are asking "how the flub did this result happen? Are the so-called shy Tories such selfish cowards that they won't even publically say who they vote for?"

No. It's not that at all.

A defining characteristic of "conservatism" is a having a sense of self-confidence about yourself, because you've examined both sides of the arguments. We don't feel the need to shout our opinion from every rooftop and seek affirmation from other like-minded individuals; we're completely at peace with our decisions.

They say that if you don't vote Labour at 20 then you don't have a heart, but if you still vote that way at 30 then you don't have a brain. Many more people turn from Labour to Tory over their lifetime than the other way. WHY IS THAT? Is it that people become less generous as they age? Or, perhaps, it is because people, at some point, are forced to grow up and face the reality of the way the world works. Socialist ideals sounds nice and fluffy in practice but in reality when you follow through their implications from first principles you arrive at some horrific conclusions.

Most conservatives have had that internal conversation with themselves an arrived at that conclusion.

The standard conversational line of the Left when they meet an "everyday" conservative (and there are many of them in the country) is often something like... "Tories are meant to be nasty... you're too nice to be a Tory..."

Well, our standard reply should be "You're too smart to be a socialist."

 

[formerly manx toffee]

I think he would be the wrong person mate. Don't know if you are old enough to remember but Michael Heseltine did a very good job (in the context of the Thatcher years at least) on Merseyside, so it is possible. However Heseltine was an "old tory" and he had some sympathy and empathy with the people of Liverpool, Boris on the other hand......

Don't disagree. I am using Boris as the most extreme example to ascertain whether any amount of positive could overcome the negative. If not, the screaming of Tory Scum will continue forever without a will to see it end.

Would the strongly socialist councillors of Liverpool rather remain in their roles and continue the anti-Tory rhetoric or see positives emerge by embracing an opportunity, albeit from the perceived enemy.

 

[Chang Elephant]

A defining characteristic of "conservatism" is a having a sense of self-confidence about yourself,

In your shot mind it is

 

[Seanjd]

A defining characteristic of "conservatism" is a having a sense of self-confidence about yourself, because you've examined both sides of the arguments. We don't feel the need to shout our opinion from every rooftop and seek affirmation from other like-minded individuals; we're completely at peace with our decisions.

With all due respect, you've been doing loads of that on here.

 

[evilwebby]

Yes, that kind of thinking might have meant sommat forty or fifty years ago when Britain was replete with a manufacturing base and the shipyards, steel foundries and car plants were employing thousands upon thousands of people and even the most dim witted among us could leave school at 15 and make a life for himself in one of them.

The days when lads started working with proper plumbing companies, electrical contractors or glazing companies and emerged after a five year apprenticeship as an accomplished tradesman who maybe eventually started his own small business.

But your sentiments and your thinking are pure bunkum in this day and age where successive governments made it easy for multi national companies to leave these shores so they could exploit third world labour and render our industrial base devastated.

That is a hand wringing post and you don't even know what you are saying.

The key word is "aspiration".

Every poor kid on the sink estate "aspires" to do better but long gone are the opportunities to lift themselves out of it.

Every homeless person dossing down in a shop doorway "aspires" to having a place to call home.

It us quite disgusting for chaps to smugly imply that the only thing necessary to lift oneself from poverty is the "aspiration" so to do.

No, my friend.

What people really need to rise out of poverty is the "opportunity" to do so.

And there is precious little of that in this once industrial powerhouse of a country.

The best most of these poor kids can hope for is minimum wage Mac Jobs, zero hour contracts or agency jobs with the council or in old people's homes without any kind of job security.

Job security.

That is another old fashioned concept which had gone out the window since Thatcher started her attack on industrial Britain and those people who depended on it to lift themselves out of poverty ......and to "stay" out of it.....and raise a family.

Oscar Wilde once said that we are all in the gutter. But some of us are looking at the stars.

Ponder on that and think of the hopelessness of kids who long to reach for the stars but lack the opportunity to do so.

I understand this point of view, but I completely disagree with it. Social mobility is much better now than it was back in that era. Far more people are going onto higher education. The transition to a service led economy means that jobs are more portable, and entry into the job market is far easier if you are prepared to roll up your sleeves.

 

[daylightrobber]

A defining characteristic of "conservatism" is a having a sense of self-confidence about yourself, because you've examined both sides of the arguments

And from that you come to the conclusion that the poor deserve to be poor so screw them anyway.

Your argument is tosh. Conservatism really isn't about self confidence, it's about protectionism.

 

[edge]

Why Edge. Sure he is not from the same stock as you and I, and can be a performing seal.....but did a reasonable job in London.

dont like the fella media whore, and less down to earth than even his leader, he wouldnt get a decent reaction anyway after his spectator article in 2004, not agaist having someone having a go at doing something what ever party they come from ,like most things in life good and bad on both sides, but maybe its just me he looks a real slimemy b who would , drown his own kids in a bucket of [Poor language removed] if it got him anywere then try and make a joke out of it , Davies would be ok i think

 

[Chang Elephant]

our standard reply should be "You're too smart to be a socialist."

Yeah right you feeble minded plonker

 

[evilwebby]

Intolerance of people who hold different opinions to yourself is the definition of socialism.

Unless you can logically explain why Labour lost and the Tories won beyond "greed triumphed over compassion yet again" then there is no hope for an improvement in your situation.

With that I take my leave of this thread and go "quietly, confidently about my own business."

 

[The Esk]

Well, I've been well negged, but it's not exactly like I didn't expect it.
Think about this.

The Left are asking "how the flub did this result happen? Are the so-called shy Tories such selfish cowards that they won't even publically say who they vote for?"

No. It's not that at all.

A defining characteristic of "conservatism" is a having a sense of self-confidence about yourself, because you've examined both sides of the arguments. We don't feel the need to shout our opinion from every rooftop and seek affirmation from other like-minded individuals; we're completely at peace with our decisions.

They say that if you don't vote Labour at 20 then you don't have a heart, but if you still vote that way at 30 then you don't have a brain. Many more people turn from Labour to Tory over their lifetime than the other way. WHY IS THAT? Is it that people become less generous as they age? Or, perhaps, it is because people, at some point, are forced to grow up and face the reality of the way the world works. Socialist ideals sounds nice and fluffy in practice but in reality when you follow through their implications from first principles you arrive at some horrific conclusions.

Most conservatives have had that internal conversation with themselves an arrived at that conclusion.

The standard conversational line of the Left when they meet an "everyday" conservative (and there are many of them in the country) is often something like... "Tories are meant to be nasty... you're too nice to be a Tory..."

Well, our standard reply should be "You're too smart to be a socialist."

Well I've heard and read some claims over the years. Being a socialist is down to a lack of intellect? That wins the prize.

 

[Chang Elephant]

Intolerance of people who hold different opinions to yourself is the definition of socialism.

They say that if you don't vote Labour at 20 then you don't have a heart, but if you still vote that way at 30 then you don't have a brain

Your definition makes you a socialist

 

[formerly manx toffee]

dont like the fella media whore, and less down to earth than even his leader, he wouldnt get a decent reaction anyway after his spectator article in 2004, not agaist having someone having a go at doing something what ever party they come from ,like most things in life good and bad on both sides, but maybe its just me he looks a real slimemy b who would , drown his own kids in a bucket of [Poor language removed] if it got him anywere then try and make a joke out of it , Davies would be ok i think

Ok. So the concept of having a senior Tory with responsibility for regeneration (hate that word, but you get me) on Merseyside is not an issue....just watch out for who he is. What if it were Osbourne ?

Btw. For all he is, Boris did a reasonable job in London

 

[daylightrobber]

Intolerance of people who hold different opinions to yourself is the definition of socialism.

Unless you can logically explain why Labour lost and the Tories won beyond "greed triumphed over compassion yet again" then there is no hope for an improvement in your situation.

With that I take my leave of this thread and go "quietly, confidently about my own business."

 

[edge]

Ok. So the concept of having a senior Tory with responsibility for regeneration (hate that word, but you get me) on Merseyside is not an issue....just watch out for who he is. What if it were Osbourne ?

Btw. For all he is, Boris did a reasonable job in London

yep just watch who it was, who ever would have to earn the trust of people by his or her actions.
think osbourne has bigger fish to fry than do that job, boris, mcvey deffo no chance but i would say that about harriot harman or balls as well, they dont sit well with me but thats just my view.
ps boris had more to spend on transport in london than we have to run the place, not to sure how he would manage down here.

 

[peteblue]

Don't disagree. I am using Boris as the most extreme example to ascertain whether any amount of positive could overcome the negative. If not, the screaming of Tory Scum will continue forever without a will to see it end.

Would the strongly socialist councillors of Liverpool rather remain in their roles and continue the anti-Tory rhetoric or see positives emerge by embracing an opportunity, albeit from the perceived enemy.

And this is the issue they have to deal with. If they can't then..........