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Al Gore, what a loser.

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I only saw his reply through your response but why is it that democracies continue to flourish yet dictatorships and other types of similar rule continue to suppress ideas such as:

1) Voting rights
2) Women's rights
3) Freedom of religion
4) Equality among races and religions.

That's just to name a few.

Democracy, while not perfect and has it's problems like any other system, easily trumps any other form of government hands down.

When citizens don't have a say, human rights are suppressed. To say it's a sham is just simply hogwash.

Simple that.
 
I'm sorry if that last reply was somewhat terse but it frankly gets on my tits when I do a bloody lot of study on subjects like this and at one end of the scale you get ridiculous labels thrown at you and at the other you get a constant nit picking. Trust me, I could find a whole lot more holes and reasons to bitch at the current system but who wants to bitch all the time right? This is GoT, the anti-TW, the place of solutions rather than moans?
 
I only saw his reply through your response but why is it that democracies continue to flourish yet dictatorships and other types of similar rule continue to suppress ideas such as:

1) Voting rights
2) Women's rights
3) Freedom of religion
4) Equality among races and religions.

That's just to name a few.

Democracy, while not perfect and has it's problems like any other system, easily trumps any other form of government hands down.

When citizens don't have a say, human rights are suppressed. To say it's a sham is just simply hogwash.

Simple that.

Exactly. The point I'm trying to make in this entire thread is that we don't have a say often enough. If the government does something you don't like, what exactly can you do? Wait 4/5 years and cast a vote in the hope that another monopoly provider will offer something more to your tastes? And lets face it, even if that happened they'd no doubt [Poor language removed] a whole other group of people.

Take food for instance. You can't get anything much more important than food to our well being. Within 15 miles of me I can shop at a Tesco, a Sainsbury, a Morrisons, several Somerfields, a Co-Op, a M&S and probably dozens of smaller convenience stores. I can spend however much I want on whatever I want. If I don't like what one store offers then I can shop at another. I get to cast my 'vote' each and every time I buy something, no waiting for 4 years here.

If the government was in charge of groceries then every store would be a Tesco, because they're most popular. Tesco would take money from you each year based on what you earnt, regardless of what you bought. You could shop at Sainsbury if you wanted but Tesco would still take money from you. You wouldn't have any say in the food Tesco provided you and they could up their prices whenever they wanted and you would be forced by law to pay them. You could get to choose every four years or so but if the majority still wanted Tesco then too bad, Tesco you've got.

Geez, and people complain about Tesco having too much power now. I wonder, I really do.
 
Not familiar with the history there Atrottel.

And while I talk about the liberal media here, it's generally accepted. Lately we've had several in the media admit to as much.

It's really not as big a deal now for a few reasons:

1) The rise of the internet, specifically blogging. In addition, people can go to several places to get news as opposed to having to rely on the big three newscasts (ABC, NBC, CBS) or the NY Times in newsprint.

2) The rise of talk radio. Admittedly, conservatives have the stranglehold in the talk radio arena. Liberals recently tried to counter this with their Air America program but it went in the tank quick due to lack of listenership. Hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have huge listenership. It wasn't intended to work out that way but conservatives had no place to go to hear opinions that they agreed with. Liberals could hear opinions they agreed with all of the time in the MSM (mainstream media). The AM dial ended up being the refuge of the conservative.

There have been several good articles on this subject and address why things have evolved the way they have in the media on both sides of the political spectrum.
 

Sorry, there, TXBill.

For those of you watching in black and white, I had a long reply about Rowntree, Lever, Dickens, Hardy and the Jarrow marchers, as well as Ken Loach and Tony Garnett.

But I deleted it cos I thought people were getting narky and I can't be arsed to write it all out again...
 
no need to apologise bruce (in my book - ps. havnt labeled you) you can say pretty much whatever you like. it appears to me that you have some faith in human goodness, im not sure its a constant, and because of this,i believe it would see selfishness spread because the people that do care and did put themselves out, would have to cover areas that had been neglected. i probably am nit picking,

i recall an interview with a would be doctor and it was with regard educational costs. the would be doctor said

"its right for the builder to help fund my education because he (the builder) gets the benefit when im trained when he needs heart surgery. lets also remember that as a doctor i will be paying more tax"

just to counter the power station and aeroplane point, i dont know how the police is managed and works day to day, but there are still criminals out there and crimes are still commit.

As for the charities already setup in this country, i cant think of one that doesnt need more help, doesnt need more cash, more publicity, more more more. over a million you say? so they are all competing then?

I dont have all the answers either, in fact, i think its probably fair to say i know absolutely no answers.
 
In fairness, I have never seen a bunch of politicians corrupt as in the USA.

Oh believe me Chico, there are plenty in 3rd world countries that don't make the news on a daily basis.

That said, we have that issue here to be sure on both sides of the aisle. Doesn't matter if you are a Democrat of Republican, both parties have 'em.

It also frustrates that neither party is willing to take responsibility for the corruption on their own side and clean it out.

If you look at history, traditionally the Republicans have been more willing (not always) to call a fellow Republican to the carpet for violating the public trust whereas the Democrats usually (not always) let it slide and in fact, have elevated members of the party who've been convicted (not accused, convicted) to higher ranking positions.
 
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Exactly. The point I'm trying to make in this entire thread is that we don't have a say often enough. If the government does something you don't like, what exactly can you do? Wait 4/5 years and cast a vote in the hope that another monopoly provider will offer something more to your tastes? And lets face it, even if that happened they'd no doubt [Poor language removed] a whole other group of people.

Take food for instance. You can't get anything much more important than food to our well being. Within 15 miles of me I can shop at a Tesco, a Sainsbury, a Morrisons, several Somerfields, a Co-Op, a M&S and probably dozens of smaller convenience stores. I can spend however much I want on whatever I want. If I don't like what one store offers then I can shop at another. I get to cast my 'vote' each and every time I buy something, no waiting for 4 years here.

If the government was in charge of groceries then every store would be a Tesco, because they're most popular. Tesco would take money from you each year based on what you earnt, regardless of what you bought. You could shop at Sainsbury if you wanted but Tesco would still take money from you. You wouldn't have any say in the food Tesco provided you and they could up their prices whenever they wanted and you would be forced by law to pay them. You could get to choose every four years or so but if the majority still wanted Tesco then too bad, Tesco you've got.

Geez, and people complain about Tesco having too much power now. I wonder, I really do.

comparing to supermarkets is unfair because they supply a product, not a way of life. currently the big chains in britain are at war with each other, they have swallowed up smaller fish (safeway) or have been taken over by outside organisations (asda/walmart).

with regards politics, the outcome isnt so clear cut, and even if it were, so often they backtrack and concede over policies that they may well have never bothered. (as for council tax, brown has to make up for the pension robbery he commit, and the selling of british gold at an all time low to the chinese - what a [Poor language removed]!)

I cant say how ''more power to the people'' would work, are a high enough percentage of the population educated and clever enough to deal with such responsibilities? how would foreign policy be decided?
 

While I admire your concern for those who are poor, homeless, less fortunate, etc... (as we should all have concern for those less fortunate and I believe that all of us do), the fact that you say it should be avoided "at all costs" makes me wonder a bit.

Because you've in fact hit the nail on the head with that. There would be a substantial cost to completely eradicating poverty. It brings to mind three questions:

1) What would be the best way to reduce/eradicate poverty?
2) Who would bear the costs associated with this?
3) Assuming the first two could be answered, what would keep the system from being abused where you end up with a welfare state?


I agree that poverty is a tragedy but how do we address it?

(Edit: By the way, I believe that non-profit, charitable organizations are a very good route to take in reducing poverty and aiding others in need.)

This thread is ace. Provincial election here today - after reading this I'm not sure whether to vote, or just stand outside the polling station yelling at everyone.

The answers to above questions 1 and 2 are both "Socialism". Sadly, the answer to #3 is "nothing", which is why socialism on any large scale is doomed to failure.
 
I'll try and answer each point as well as possible.

no need to apologise bruce (in my book - ps. havnt labeled you) you can say pretty much whatever you like. it appears to me that you have some faith in human goodness, im not sure its a constant, and because of this,i believe it would see selfishness spread because the people that do care and did put themselves out, would have to cover areas that had been neglected. i probably am nit picking,

i recall an interview with a would be doctor and it was with regard educational costs. the would be doctor said

"its right for the builder to help fund my education because he (the builder) gets the benefit when im trained when he needs heart surgery. lets also remember that as a doctor i will be paying more tax"

just to counter the power station and aeroplane point, i dont know how the police is managed and works day to day, but there are still criminals out there and crimes are still commit.

As for the charities already setup in this country, i cant think of one that doesnt need more help, doesnt need more cash, more publicity, more more more. over a million you say? so they are all competing then?

I dont have all the answers either, in fact, i think its probably fair to say i know absolutely no answers.

On the subject of tuition fees, I regard it as quite a simple issue. You go to university, you pay for it. You mentioned in a previous post about education not being one size fits all and it seems that the government are trying to cajole a lot of kids into university and I'm not sure of the benefits offered by many courses. Obviously the best institutions are going to be value for money but there are equally many courses at shoddy universities that will do little except provide a lot of debt for the students attending. I suppose in true market style those kids will find out the hard way whether their education has been value for money and these uni's will either start providing better education (be that academic or vocational) or die.

The charity situation is an interesting one. I guess I can't really say it better than the late nobel winning economist Milton Friedman

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. And that’s government. And that’s close to 40% of our national income.

Now I appreciate that in some regards charities are selling a product in the work that they do but in many ways they're very different to a company. For instance a company generally knows how many products or services it can sell and any excess inventory (or staff or whatever) generally comes in as wastage rather than improved quality. The concept of lean manufacturing (and six sigma and their ilk) looks to get processes down to their optimum efficiency. If you observe the stockmarket companies often return money to their shareholders because they have no efficient use for the capital.

In some ways charities are similar to governments in that if you give them an endless pot of money they'll find some way of spending it. So whilst I'm sure there are charities that are hampered by a lack of funds there are also I suspect many who are simply saying "gimme, gimme, gimme". It's probably fair to say however that because charities rely on donations that they have to provide a good level of service to stay in business. Now perhaps their work isn't quite as tangible as buying a loaf of bread or something so people may not know exactly what constitutes good service or not but they do still have an element of feedback about them and offer donors a choice over where they place their money.

I'm sure we can all think of cases where we don't agree with certain welfare recipitents, be it immigrants getting social housing or people retiring on 'disability'. It seems the democratic way for the people of this country to vote with their wallets for the causes they think are worth supporting. After all we each have varying priorities in life and each regard different causes as important.

comparing to supermarkets is unfair because they supply a product, not a way of life. currently the big chains in britain are at war with each other, they have swallowed up smaller fish (safeway) or have been taken over by outside organisations (asda/walmart).

I'm not so sure there is that big a difference. If you breakdown the UK budget you'll find spending in areas such as education, transport, health, housing, welfare, defence, law and order, plus of course various local services such as refuse collection.

As I've mentioned before defence and law and order are fine for me, but pretty much all of the other services have a private sector involvement. Private schools are obvious so there seems no reason why they can't be used as a benchmark. Transport also. Actually transport could well be another contentious issue because obviously there was Railtrack (which I think was botched up from the start), but also I think road pricing is fair enough on the you use it, you pay for it principal (plus it will happen sooner or later - watch this space). There are obviously private hospitals (and charitable alternatives) in Britain and the US has a private health sector. Welfare we've discussed. Companies such as Biffa already do a lot of work in areas such as refuse collection so there seems little reason why this can't be privatised.

So yes, I agree it is a way of life but we are still essentially buying services from the government, the main difference being that we have no say whatsoever in how much we pay or what we get in return.

I cant say how ''more power to the people'' would work, are a high enough percentage of the population educated and clever enough to deal with such responsibilities? how would foreign policy be decided?

The education of people is an interesting point. I read an interesting book a few years ago called the Wisdom of Crowds. To cut a long story very short, the basic idea of the book was that a group of people acting independantly are smarter than a solitary expert. To use a popular analogy 'ask the audience' will produce better results than 'phone a friend'. Now obviously history shows that this doesn't happen all the time and the book does present certain conditions that the author believes are required to enable the group wisdom to flourish but it does provide an interesting thought on this subject.

As for foreign policy, I have really no idea. Personally speaking I'm pacifist in nature. I'm all for trading with any tom, **** or harry. I would like the country to mix with all others culturally. But militarily I would be happy to keep our armed forces at home and do what their name suggests, defend. Japan has done quite ok being pacifist since WW2 so I don't really see why we cannot flourish on a similar tract.
 

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