2020/21 Anthony Gordon

[TheBigIguana]

Maybe, i don't know though. When Ancelotti came in 10 months ago he had a total of 8 minutes of senior football under his belt. He's now made 5 starts and another 10 sub appearances. In truth, he's yet to really do anything particularly impressive (i'm not criticising, that's understandable for a 19 year old but he hasn't). I would have played him in the last 2 games because I think he at least gives us a bit of pace and willingness to get in behind, but I can't really say it's crazy that he hasn't been picked based on what we've seen of him so far.

If he's low enough in the order that the amount of minutes he is getting is how he really had a chance at then he should have been sent on loan. So imo there is no real excuse for the management. A 19 year old kid ready to break through not even playing 1000 minutes in 11 months isn't good enough.

 

[mrb85]

Maybe, i don't know though. When Ancelotti came in 10 months ago he had a total of 8 minutes of senior football under his belt. He's now made 5 starts and another 10 sub appearances. In truth, he's yet to really do anything particularly impressive (i'm not criticising, that's understandable for a 19 year old but he hasn't). I would have played him in the last 2 games because I think he at least gives us a bit of pace and willingness to get in behind, but I can't really say it's crazy that he hasn't been picked based on what we've seen of him so far.

Well, depends what you mean by 'particularly impressive' - at Everton if you go past a man you're impressive, and he goes past opposition easily.

 

[Lanolin]

If he's low enough in the order that the amount of minutes he is getting is how he really had a chance at then he should have been sent on loan. So imo there is no real excuse for the management. A 19 year old kid ready to break through not even playing 1000 minutes in 11 months isn't good enough.

Nah that's just far too simplistic an argument sorry. People always say it but just take a second to look at some of our recent loans. Lewis Gibson hasn't played a single minute of football since he went out, he genuinely might have got more games here. Players develop differently, there are pros and cons to loans, pros and cons to pitching people in at the deep end, and pros and cons to being in and out of the team. None of us can possibly know how well he's being handled really.

 

[Lanolin]

Well, depends what you mean by 'particularly impressive' - at Everton if you go past a man you're impressive, and he goes past opposition easily.

Well I mean in terms of having any sort of tangible impact on games really. Not even necessarily goals and assists, just a clear impact on our play. He came on at Southampton and I'd say he was an improvement on what went before him, but he didn't exactly change the game. It's not like suddenly he was zooming past people and had them at panic stations, he was just slightly more effective than Iwobi had been. That's been a feature in his appearances I think, he's tended to look like a good footballer without ever really making me think 'get him in the team right now'. As a comparison i'd think of someone like Deulofeu in his first season. He could be frustrating as hell, but he'd often come on and cause serious problems for teams. I just haven't seen that from Gordon yet, but again, there's plenty of time for that.

 

[catcherintherye]

Well I mean in terms of having any sort of tangible impact on games really. Not even necessarily goals and assists, just a clear impact on our play. He came on at Southampton and I'd say he was an improvement on what went before him, but he didn't exactly change the game. It's not like suddenly he was zooming past people and had them at panic stations, he was just slightly more effective than Iwobi had been. That's been a feature in his appearances I think, he's tended to look like a good footballer without ever really making me think 'get him in the team right now'. As a comparison i'd think of someone like Deulofeu in his first season. He could be frustrating as hell, but he'd often come on and cause serious problems for teams. I just haven't seen that from Gordon yet, but again, there's plenty of time for that.

A lot of good points on this thread here from you mate.

As it happens, I really like Gordon. I can see though it's a very subjective judgement, that sometimes you just get a feel for a player. I saw an article in the Athletic which mentioned they may see him as a central midfielder long term, and I could see that actualy, given how he performed away at Spurs last season. For me, Gordon is incredibly skilled at carrying the ball and weaving past people. I said he reminded me of Mcmanaman and I stick by that. He has more to his game too, he can pass, cross, shoot (though he needs to be more selfish).I also think he will keep growing, and be quite tall, but will be very slim as well. He can tackle and hold position too.

However even with all that in mind we have to weigh other things in. I don't get people getting at Ancelotti for not playing him. As you've said, he was nowhere near selection before Ancelotti came. It was questionable he'd even start a game, he was where Ellis Simms is now. Ancelotti has developed him to a point where he can play, so if he think's he's ready he will play him.

We can all go overboard in lockdown a bit. I was very impressed with Brainthwaite and Gordon but ultimately they wrre the bright spot on a poor team. They still made mistakes but did some good things too. It's right that fans accentuate the positive, and we know that as they get older/stronger the negatives will become less. But if you're Ancelotti and want a team that wins, what you see is a lad who did ok in a team that lost. He has to get to the next level and show it in training. The rhetoric for Calver Lewin and Richarlinson has changed too, he wants them scoring 20+ goals. That's the expectations he brings.

We should be grateful for that. We saw Stones, and to a degree Deulofeu, Barkley and Lukaku stagnate here under Martinez. You could piut minutes stats up and they were all really high, but none of them got more consistent. They were brilliant for a 19 year old, and incosistent at 22. Ancelotti is not going to leave a lad in the team like Stones was to keep making mistakes every week- to get "get it out of his system" before we move him on. They will need to show him they won't make mistakes.

There will be winners and losers from this. For every Calvert Lewin, or Holgate or (we hope) Richarlinson, looks to be a Bernard, an Iwobi, a Gomes, a Kenny. Players who just aren't able to go to the next level. They will start being cleared out. If Gordon can't get consistent, he will be too, but obviously has a lot more time. Or it could be the making of him, and he goes from being an excellent 19 yar old, into an excellent 22/23 year old like Richarlinson is.

 

[MikeH72]

Maybe, i don't know though. When Ancelotti came in 10 months ago he had a total of 8 minutes of senior football under his belt. He's now made 5 starts and another 10 sub appearances. In truth, he's yet to really do anything particularly impressive (i'm not criticising, that's understandable for a 19 year old but he hasn't). I would have played him in the last 2 games because I think he at least gives us a bit of pace and willingness to get in behind, but I can't really say it's crazy that he hasn't been picked based on what we've seen of him so far.

He’s impressed in the cup games which is pretty much the only chances he’s been given this season. If we were expecting him to be banging in hat-tricks in those games then I think it’s our expectations that we want looking at. There are players in that side that have been starting most games this season that have contributed no more than him in the little minutes he’s played.

 

[MikeH72]

You're allowed to say that sure.

Disagree though. CA rates him, he wouldn't have given him a chance in the derby after the restart last season and a few appearances going. Only thing is AG hasn't yet delivered a massive amount in the higher games.

I really like him, has real potential but also needs to be slowly bedded in if he isn't coming in having huge impacts straight away. I do get the viewpoint of him being thrown in for Richarlison, and I wouldn't have been against it, but I'm not against keeping him fresh, keeping him learning and giving him smaller minutes until he's ready.

A lot of hype over him for what has been little end product so far in senior games (not a criticism, he is young, he has huge talent and it will come over time). I think once he plays, has an impact and finds his feet fully.

We had the benefit of seeing Rooney come through and be unbelievably good, and I always feel that we hold our latest youth to that stadnard when they come through so we expect them to do an awful lot.

Well that’s just wrong, I’m sorry. That needs to stop.

 

[Lanolin]

A lot of good points on this thread here from you mate.

As it happens, I really like Gordon. I can see though it's a very subjective judgement, that sometimes you just get a feel for a player. I saw an article in the Athletic which mentioned they may see him as a central midfielder long term, and I could see that actualy, given how he performed away at Spurs last season. For me, Gordon is incredibly skilled at carrying the ball and weaving past people. I said he reminded me of Mcmanaman and I stick by that. He has more to his game too, he can pass, cross, shoot (though he needs to be more selfish).I also think he will keep growing, and be quite tall, but will be very slim as well. He can tackle and hold position too.

However even with all that in mind we have to weigh other things in. I don't get people getting at Ancelotti for not playing him. As you've said, he was nowhere near selection before Ancelotti came. It was questionable he'd even start a game, he was where Ellis Simms is now. Ancelotti has developed him to a point where he can play, so if he think's he's ready he will play him.

We can all go overboard in lockdown a bit. I was very impressed with Brainthwaite and Gordon but ultimately they wrre the bright spot on a poor team. They still made mistakes but did some good things too. It's right that fans accentuate the positive, and we know that as they get older/stronger the negatives will become less. But if you're Ancelotti and want a team that wins, what you see is a lad who did ok in a team that lost. He has to get to the next level and show it in training. The rhetoric for Calver Lewin and Richarlinson has changed too, he wants them scoring 20+ goals. That's the expectations he brings.

We should be grateful for that. We saw Stones, and to a degree Deulofeu, Barkley and Lukaku stagnate here under Martinez. You could piut minutes stats up and they were all really high, but none of them got more consistent. They were brilliant for a 19 year old, and incosistent at 22. Ancelotti is not going to leave a lad in the team like Stones was to keep making mistakes every week- to get "get it out of his system" before we move him on. They will need to show him they won't make mistakes.

There will be winners and losers from this. For every Calvert Lewin, or Holgate or (we hope) Richarlinson, looks to be a Bernard, an Iwobi, a Gomes, a Kenny. Players who just aren't able to go to the next level. They will start being cleared out. If Gordon can't get consistent, he will be too, but obviously has a lot more time. Or it could be the making of him, and he goes from being an excellent 19 yar old, into an excellent 22/23 year old like Richarlinson is.

Yeah that sums up my feelings on it pretty well. In a nutshell I think he probably deserves a shot based on the fact that other people have been poor, rather than because he's looked brilliant, if that makes sense. I'm not commenting on his potential at all, just on where I see him right at this moment.

 

[Lanolin]

He’s impressed in the cup games which is pretty much the only chances he’s been given this season. If we were expecting him to be banging in hat-tricks in those games then I think it’s our expectations that we want looking at. There are players in that side that have been starting most games this season that have contributed no more than him in the little minutes he’s played.

No i've already said i'm not talking about him scoring hat tricks or whatever. I'm just talking about his general performances. Yes he looked good in the cup games against lower league sides. So did Gylfi, remind me again of your feelings on him?

 

[TheBigIguana]

Nah that's just far too simplistic an argument sorry. People always say it but just take a second to look at some of our recent loans. Lewis Gibson hasn't played a single minute of football since he went out, he genuinely might have got more games here. Players develop differently, there are pros and cons to loans, pros and cons to pitching people in at the deep end, and pros and cons to being in and out of the team. None of us can possibly know how well he's being handled really.

There are only cons to not playing

 

[Lanolin]

There are only cons to not playing

That's just so untrue though, seriously. It's really, really basic thinking. I've gone over this ground so many times but there isn't a one size fits all approach to development, it's just plain stupidity to pretend there is. If Gordon plays tomorrow he'll have played in 1/3 of our games, it's not like he's being frozen out and is going to forget how to play football. I've said before, if this continues long term and he gets to the end of this season having only made another 4 or 5 appearances i'll be agreeing with you that we may not have handled it well. There's no reason to suppose that he won't have played another 15 times though, which really isn't bad for a player of his age at the top level. It's far too early to be saying he's been handled badly.

 

[catcherintherye]

No i've already said i'm not talking about him scoring hat tricks or whatever. I'm just talking about his general performances. Yes he looked good in the cup games against lower league sides. So did Gylfi, remind me again of your feelings on him?

I just think there may be a bigger picture with Gordon. Maybe he knows it's a bit of a shambles with the midfield and doesn't want to drag Gordon down? He wants to ork with him in training, give him opportunities at times to suit him so he begins to gain confidence?

 

[DOMNOLAN]

A lot of good points on this thread here from you mate.

As it happens, I really like Gordon. I can see though it's a very subjective judgement, that sometimes you just get a feel for a player. I saw an article in the Athletic which mentioned they may see him as a central midfielder long term, and I could see that actualy, given how he performed away at Spurs last season. For me, Gordon is incredibly skilled at carrying the ball and weaving past people. I said he reminded me of Mcmanaman and I stick by that. He has more to his game too, he can pass, cross, shoot (though he needs to be more selfish).I also think he will keep growing, and be quite tall, but will be very slim as well. He can tackle and hold position too.

However even with all that in mind we have to weigh other things in. I don't get people getting at Ancelotti for not playing him. As you've said, he was nowhere near selection before Ancelotti came. It was questionable he'd even start a game, he was where Ellis Simms is now. Ancelotti has developed him to a point where he can play, so if he think's he's ready he will play him.

We can all go overboard in lockdown a bit. I was very impressed with Brainthwaite and Gordon but ultimately they wrre the bright spot on a poor team. They still made mistakes but did some good things too. It's right that fans accentuate the positive, and we know that as they get older/stronger the negatives will become less. But if you're Ancelotti and want a team that wins, what you see is a lad who did ok in a team that lost. He has to get to the next level and show it in training. The rhetoric for Calver Lewin and Richarlinson has changed too, he wants them scoring 20+ goals. That's the expectations he brings.

We should be grateful for that. We saw Stones, and to a degree Deulofeu, Barkley and Lukaku stagnate here under Martinez. You could piut minutes stats up and they were all really high, but none of them got more consistent. They were brilliant for a 19 year old, and incosistent at 22. Ancelotti is not going to leave a lad in the team like Stones was to keep making mistakes every week- to get "get it out of his system" before we move him on. They will need to show him they won't make mistakes.

There will be winners and losers from this. For every Calvert Lewin, or Holgate or (we hope) Richarlinson, looks to be a Bernard, an Iwobi, a Gomes, a Kenny. Players who just aren't able to go to the next level. They will start being cleared out. If Gordon can't get consistent, he will be too, but obviously has a lot more time. Or it could be the making of him, and he goes from being an excellent 19 yar old, into an excellent 22/23 year old like Richarlinson is.

I disagree with the last paragraph. Saying he needs to get consistent implies that he isn’t. It also implies that he’s even had a chance to show that he can be. He has not been given a chance, and in the few games he has played, he’s been excellent.

 

[Zezti]

Well, depends what you mean by 'particularly impressive' - at Everton if you go past a man you're impressive, and he goes past opposition easily.

Walcott could go past a man, then do naff all useful around the box, and we wouldn't call that impressive. Gordon has to be more threatening.

I disagree with the last paragraph. Saying he needs to get consistent implies that he isn’t. It also implies that he’s even had a chance to show that he can be. He has not been given a chance, and in the few games he has played, he’s been excellent.

'Excellent'? He was good if not wasteful in the cup against Salford but hasn't shown much promise this season otherwise, imo.

 

[MikeH72]

No i've already said i'm not talking about him scoring hat tricks or whatever. I'm just talking about his general performances. Yes he looked good in the cup games against lower league sides. So did Gylfi, remind me again of your feelings on him?

I’m sorry, this is a player who has played in more or less every game for us for the past 3 seasons. I think we know what he’s about. Not even close to being a comparison, we’re talking about a youngster deserving at least a bit of a chance here.