Corruption or big team bias

[chrismpw]

We just sound like every other fan in the league, mate. They all think decisions go against them, even skag 6 fans. Truth is, there is no corruption, unconscious bias - certainly, corruption - nah.

So by some miracle football is uniquely innocent of corruptuon amongst all professional sport, despite having more money to splash around as temptation and more money as a reward for success than any other?

I don't buy that!

 

[Firhillfill]

I've done my job for a long time and I'm really good at what I do (as I should be).

Football referees have also been through the 'learning process' and should be more than competent. There is, in my view, no reason why 'en masse' they can be accused of being 'grossly incompetent' unless there is something else at play. Especially given that you don't hear fans of rugby, cricket, snooker, et al accusing officials of the same thing.

Just listen to ex-referee Dermot Gallagher. A push in the back against a 'Sky darling team' in the penalty box is, without any discussion, a penalty. If it's not a 'Sky darling team' it is 'a coming together' or 'it is the referee using his common sense' or 'we don't want to see penalties given for that' or 'there wasn't enough pressure on the back'.

Doctors are not accused of being 'en masse' 'grossly incompetent'. Likewise; lawyers, accountants, dentists, truck drivers, taxi drivers, shop workers, mechanics, etc.

I just think that it's all a bit wrong and is killing the game we love.

Yeah good points, well made.

If it is something more sinister then he'll mend them, it'll come out eventually.

 

[Bryan+]

I also think there’s an element of not screwing up one of the Sky 6 teams, because if the ref does, bang go their chances of getting a high profile game for a while or worse, get demoted to reffing in the Championship

One day. Maybe not in our lifetime - we will see a whistleblower who sheds light on the absolute corruption that props the PL up.

There is too much money involved for it to be fair.

 

[maccavennie]

To some extent, but big teams attack more, put their opponents under pressure more, create more opportunities and ask more questions of the Ref.

It’s a percentage game.
If you burst into the oppositions box 20 times a game against panicked, less talented defenders, you are likely to get more pens than if you get into the box twice against works class defenders who are comfortable in their system.

This is all true but then watch any match (let's say the rs against Everton for example) at Anfield and watch how many fouls are allowed to be committed by certain players compared to others. Everton will commit a foul and the player will get a yellow instantly, whilst MacAllister does 2 to 3 fouls before getting a warning.

The bias is relentless. So, yes you are correct in that the better teams attack more so that naturally leads to more fouls etc but there is such a visible bias to certain teams that the odds of getting a result against them are stacked about 30% against you even more, before a ball had been kicked.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

So by some miracle football is uniquely innocent of corruptuon amongst all professional sport, despite having more money to splash around as temptation and more money as a reward for success than any other?

I don't buy that!

I do not doubt that it may be in some countries (South America and Asia spring to mind for match fixing) but, these are high-level, highly scrutinised refs in the biggest league in the world - if they were being got at - it would come out by now.

 

[chrismpw]

I do not doubt that it may be in some countries (South America and Asia spring to mind for match fixing) but, these are high-level, highly scrutinised refs in the biggest league in the world - if they were being got at - it would come out by now.

Our media is heavily involved in living off the popularity and the pots of money that the Premier League collects from armchairs across the UK and Europe. Do you really think they'd undermine that global brand just for a few days or weeks of news? I mean, the same media successfully controls what people think of the government and who they should vote for, convincing people that the Premier League is whiter than white seems a doddle.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Our media is heavily involved in living off the popularity and the pots of money that the Premier League collects from armchairs across the UK and Europe. Do you really think they'd undermine that global brand just for a few days or weeks of news? I mean, the same media successfully controls what people think of the government and who they should vote for, convincing people that the Premier League is whiter than white seems a doddle.

Honestly, this is fantasy - do you genuinely believe refs are bought?

 

[ClausThomsen]

100% there's corruption. There's been cheating found in all the top sporting leagues, but we're supposed to believe the most financially lucrative league has been immune to it for 30 years?

FFS, there were Chinese bets being placed in the 90s on the specific minute that floodlights would fail in premier league matches. They will be far more sophisticated and subtle than that now.

So not massive match altering decisions or hugely controversial 'mistakes' that are repeatedly shown on TV? That's what most of the corruption shouts seem to circle around.

Match fixing syndicates generally tend to shy away from high profile competitions or fixtures. Early rounds of a low ranking snooker tournament or something similarly low key such as lower division throw-in counts would be the favoured market of a sophisticated and subtle fix. Telling a ref to fix a match that's watched by millions the world in the highest profile football league in the world probably isn't the most sophisticated or subtle way of doing things.

Of course money attracts bad actors but they tend to be in and around the commercial arm of it. The sort who would like that 39th game on foreign soil, explicitly closed door competitions or want to find ways of syphoning money directly out of the sport. They really don't need to directly influence penalty decisions to get their dough.

And as always the 'results' conspiracy's never make long term sense. The purported aims of them seemingly change from week to week and often go directly against the teams they're supposed to be protecting and in favour of the teams they supposedly punishing.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

So not massive match altering decisions or hugely controversial 'mistakes' that are repeatedly shown on TV? That's what most of the corruption shouts seem to circle around.

Match fixing syndicates generally tend to shy away from high profile competitions or fixtures. Early rounds of a low ranking snooker tournament or something similarly low key such as lower division throw-in counts would be the favoured market of a sophisticated and subtle fix. Telling a ref to fix a match that's watched by millions the world in the highest profile football league in the world probably isn't the most sophisticated or subtle way of doing things.

Of course money attracts bad actors but they tend to be in and around the commercial arm of it. The sort who would like that 39th game on foreign soil, explicitly closed door competitions or want to find ways of syphoning money directly out of the sport. They really don't need to directly influence penalty decisions to get their dough.

And as always the 'results' conspiracy's never make long term sense. The purported aims of them seemingly change from week to week and often go directly against the teams they're supposed to be protecting and in favour of the teams they supposedly punishing.

Exactly

 

[ClausThomsen]

I'm pretty sure there is corruption on a boardroom level at the prem but doubt that spills over into directives given to referees. With the refs themselves, it's a combo of some conscious bias, some unconscious bias but mostly abject incompetence.

The day the prem outsource refereeing to foreign refs I will rejoice.

Foreign refs - that most consistent and free of bias or corruption breed of officials the sport has ever seen.

If you genuinely believe that foreign refs are markedly better than those in the UK then you don't watch, listen or read about football outside the UK.

 

[Shevin Keedy]

Hypothetically, if I were to offer you £100k to now type the opposite of that and tell nobody of this conversation what would you do?

He doesn't believe that you would pay him that money, nor do I. You have therefore strengthened his argument.

 

[Blue peter]

Hypothetically, if I were to offer you £100k to now type the opposite of that and tell nobody of this conversation what would you do?

Negotiate to £150k

 

[Blue peter]

Jeez, there’s some conspiracy theories going on in here ranging from the refs to the PL and the media

30% possession in most games will mean your likely to get decisions go against you. Raucous large crowds will influence a person - that’s just natural but there’s no corruption - just incompetence at times.

I don’t recall us having many decisions go against us in Martinez’s first season when we controlled possession and achieved 72 points

 

[ClausThomsen]

Don’t think it’s bias I think it’s more fixed than anything, how often do you see the RS/Arsenal/City get a player sent off or a penalty against? Very very rare to rare in fact, how often do you see offside calls go there way?

They added VAR which was meant to give the right decision but it doesn’t it’s just as fixed as the rest of it. Then you have pundits who all back the “big teams” who back up said dodgy reffing decisions that go for their team and make a massive deal against the very few that don’t

Teams that spend more time on the ball, more time in and around the opposition penalty area and less time defending in their own box are naturally going to concede less penalties than teams who have less possession, spend more time trying to win the ball and spend more time defending in their own box.

That's one of the absolute basic easy to understand fundamentals of football.

And for the record City, United and Chelsea are all among the the sides to have conceded most penalties this season and are traditionally viewed as Sky6 sides. RS & Arsenal have both only conceded 1 which puts them into the same category as similar big teams Forest, Leicester, Palace and Bournemouth. The only side to not concede a PL penalty so far this season are Newcastle.

In terms of Red Cards Arsenal and Southampton have had the most players sent off with 3. City and the RS have only had one player sent off which again puts them in the same company as us, Newcastle, Spurs, Palace, Chelsea, Wolves, Brighton and Brentford.

Bournemouth and Leicester seem to have had no red cards in the PL this season from what I can see.

I'm not entirely sure how these actual facts tally with your 'fixing' theory. But it does tie in with the theory that fans have clear bias and see only what they want to see and will outright make facts up to justify their claims of conspiracy.

Quick edit on the offside note - You literally saw one go against City in favour of Everton the other day. Haaland's disallowed goal after the penalty.

 

[ClausThomsen]

This is all true but then watch any match (let's say the rs against Everton for example) at Anfield and watch how many fouls are allowed to be committed by certain players compared to others. Everton will commit a foul and the player will get a yellow instantly, whilst MacAllister does 2 to 3 fouls before getting a warning.

The bias is relentless. So, yes you are correct in that the better teams attack more so that naturally leads to more fouls etc but there is such a visible bias to certain teams that the odds of getting a result against them are stacked about 30% against you even more, before a ball had been kicked.

Okay similarly then watch Everton v RS at Goodison last season. No yellow cards for Everton and 3 for them. I'm not sure how that equates to relentless bias - or do you only see it when it goes against what you want?

And in the game at their place Ashley Young was terrible for the second yellow and there were a couple of penalty shouts (Keane 'handball' and Patterson on Diaz) where 'such a visible bias' would surely have gone in favour of the RS. We'd have all been screaming for them and shouting relentless bias if it was the other way round in their box.