2023/24 Dominic Calvert-Lewin

[Street end man]

What I'm disagreeing with is fans who are saying he's crap and we have better.

I think in the main fans are just asking for a change up front. It's hard for any of us to know whether any of the other options are better as they seldom get a kick. The no 9 role is simply locked out seemingly, whatever happens on the pitch.
In all fairness to Patterson, he must wonder how he's not getting game time now when this fella plays no matter what his performances are like.
If a stiker does not strike in the run of games he's had he'd be dropped in any team surely and plan B would ensue..

 

[GrandOldTeam]

@PhilM I'm not sure what point you're actually trying to make?

You started by arguing his record was a purple patch, before then saying it doesn't matter what he did then.

You're saying he'd score 10-12 elsewhere, but you also think he's beset by injury and won't score like he did again.

Saying he's a write off, curating his xG etc from three seasons (that you also say doesn't matter?) but then saying you've supported him is disingenuous to me. Maybe instead of "I've supported him but here's loads of reasons why he's crap, my mate says he's finished and I couldn't disagree with him"... just say you thought he was good once, but now think he's crap?

I was recently chatting to my Uncle about Dom (he's not an Evertonian) and he referenced the likes of Danny Ings, Tammy Abraham and Raul Jiiménez.

Why? Players who've had a handful of seasons of prolific scoring in the PL, have been beset by injury and not have gone on to find that prolific scoring again.

He put Dom in that bracket, and while I attempted to defend his ability compared to the above I found it difficult.

And I'd have all three starting for us at the moment too, ahead of Beto and Chermiti.

Why? Because I disagree with you here;

Yet, what he did 3 or 4 seasons ago is irrelevant

... as I keep saying, it shows he's capable. I don't know whether the alternatives are, and we're sat in the relegation zone. From what I've seen of Beto, I think the most polite I can be is say he needs time. Chermiti, Woan/Dyche has said is a development player.

have been beset by injury and not have gone on to find that prolific scoring again.

He put Dom in that bracket, and while I attempted to defend his ability compared to the above I found it difficult.

I don't think injuries have ended him - I think it was late October when he scored vs West Ham so that view would be based on Nov-Feb. I mean, you just said he'd score 10-12 league goals elsewhere? That would be more than anyone we've had since... someone fill in the blank?

His performances until the past few weeks in a team with a return closer to Europe than relegation has been pretty good, goals aside.

I see a player on his arse for confidence, in a team that wouldn't be conducive to any striker. Never mind one as seemingly raw at Beto, or Chermiti.

If people think Beto/Chermiti should start, because Calvert-Lewin hasn't scored since 29th October then fair enough. Loads will think that. Evidently, I rate Calvert-Lewin higher and perhaps alternatives worse than those.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I think in the main fans are just asking for a change up front. It's hard for any of us to know whether any of the other options are better as they seldom get a kick. The no 9 role is simply locked out seemingly, whatever happens on the pitch.
In all fairness to Patterson, he must wonder how he's not getting game time now when this fella plays no matter what his performances are like.
If a stiker does not strike in the run of games he's had he'd be dropped in any team surely and plan B would ensue..

I know, and can understand it. When we signed Beto I'd have thought no brainer to play him when Calvert-Lewin isn't scoring or out of form.

It's just from what I've seen of Beto (in the 560+ minutes), and given our predicament, I'd stick with Calvert-Lewin for a while yet.

 

[Street end man]

I know, and can understand it. When we signed Beto I'd have thought no brainer to play him when Calvert-Lewin isn't scoring or out of form.

It's just from what I've seen of Beto (in the 560+ minutes), and given our predicament, I'd stick with Calvert-Lewin for a while yet.

I know mate and agree Beto has not looked the answer recently, however I go back to my point of him being all but locked out of the starting line ups. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he's started just 5 games. Look at his cameo minutes in the last 10 games, all bit parts. Must be very hard to grab that chance being played like that with no rythm at all. Then you have Dobbin, even less minutes under his belt yet fired one of the best goals in at Goodison this season, I thought it deserved more game time in later games, but no. Then Chermiti, simply impossible to judge. If any of these 3 had been given that 20 game run could they have done worse? I'm not sure they would have goals wise.

 

[trueblue84]

I know, and can understand it. When we signed Beto I'd have thought no brainer to play him when Calvert-Lewin isn't scoring or out of form.

It's just from what I've seen of Beto (in the 560+ minutes), and given our predicament, I'd stick with Calvert-Lewin for a while yet.

It comes down to mismanagement of the club again. Any other team would have squad depth and be able to rotate tired/out of form players. We don't and it is showing.

I think it is the same argument with doucoure. I've seen the stats that we don't win when he is out of the team and our fans say we'd be mad to sell him for that reason. But that ignores the fact that we have nobody else, which is why he seems vital to our team. Had sigurdsson still been around or Alli not perpetually injured, I doubt he'd be seen as such a vital player.

There's a conflation of loads of different arguments which is why the fans are divided. There's "what we need now", and then "what we need longer term".

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I know mate and agree Beto has not looked the answer recently, however I go back to my point of him being all but locked out of the starting line ups. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he's started just 5 games. Look at his cameo minutes in the last 10 games, all bit parts. Must be very hard to grab that chance being played like that with no rythm at all. Then you have Dobbin, even less minutes under his belt yet fired one of the best goals in at Goodison this season, I thought it deserved more game time in later games, but no. Then Chermiti, simply impossible to judge. If any of these 3 had been given that 20 game run could they have done worse? I'm not sure they would have goals wise.

I think we'd have less points, because I think Beto's overall game isn't what Calvert-Lewins is. I think it would be no different to when we had Gordon, Gray or Maupay upfront.

I think Beto needs balls behind the lines/to run onto. I don't think he's a focal point/can hold on to the ball like Calvert-Lewin. Time will tell. I think Beto needs time.

if we didn't get a point deduction, we're 12th. If Calvert-Lewin had scored just 2 since his last goal, there's not the current debate IMO.

 

[peteblue]

His confidence in front of goal seems shot. His general play is fine and he’s still an impressive athlete. I imagine he’s banging them in in training. Either he needs a break or a sports psychologist. Just carrying on as we are is not doing him, the team, or the fans any good I’m afraid…..

 

[DL100]

He's just not very good, I'm not sure why more people just aren't acknowledging it now. He wouldn't start for any other team in the league, he hit a purple patch under Carlo and has been poor ever since. He pops up with the occasional goal every now and again but misses far more important chances.

His hold up play and finishing is terrible.

 

[PhilM]

@PhilM I'm not sure what point you're actually trying to make?

You started by arguing his record was a purple patch, before then saying it doesn't matter what he did then.

Firstly, I said the counterargument may that it had been a purple patch, in reference to your post showing his scoring form at the time and 'short memories'.

Emphasis on the modal verb ‘may’, in that I don't think it's unjustified for people to infer that it does not definitely evidence he is a player of that calibre.

Have I, definitively, said it was a purple patch? Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough, but the point was those against Dom may use it as a counter.

My hope is that it wasn't a period of excess, and rather I do feel he has the ability to do well for us if he can rekindle his form, and the team assist him.

Yet, to counter-that, I do think he has to question and improve some parts of his game if he's going to break his duck; some of the missed chances are poor.

You're saying he'd score 10-12 elsewhere, but you also think he's beset by injury and won't score like he did again.

I do think he may score 10-12 elsewhere, and I do not think that's too conflicting in how I have praised and supported him over numerous years.

To add, his best career totals are 15 and 21, so it would be an improvement on his current totals, while not reaching the heights of 21-23. Is that unjustified?

Lots of people who dislike Dom say he's here, you think he's there, whereas I am unapologetically somewhere in the middle, but more leaning towards you.

Saying he's a write off,curating his xG etc from three seasons (that you also say doesn't matter?) but then saying you've supported him is disingenuous to me.
Maybe instead of "I've supported him but here's loads of reasons why he's crap, my mate says he's finished and I couldn't disagree with him"... just say you thought he was good once, but now think he's crap?

Where have I said that? Genuinely, I'd like you to (like I've mentioned) trawl through my posts where I've said or perspicuously inferred anything of the such.

The reference to those players is based on the stats. Yes, I am not a fan of xG (again, look on here), but people will use statistics to support an argument.

When you put that, his goals per minute, overall goal tally together over his career, people will (in their eyes) justifiable paint a picture of a player.

It was you who raised the point that he scored x-number of goals through the tweet, so again does that not open the discussion of his other stats?

I see a player on his arse for confidence, in a team that wouldn't be conducive to any striker. Never mind one as seemingly raw at Beto, or Chermiti.

If people think Beto/Chermiti should start, because Calvert-Lewin hasn't scored since 29th October then fair enough. Loads will think that. Evidently, I rate Calvert-Lewin higher and perhaps alternatives worse than those.

As do I - again, have a look. Nevertheless, when you objectively compare the likes of Jiminez and co. with Dom, my point was it was difficult for me to argue.

If people without our blue tinted glasses (or simply do not have the hope we have or need) are saying x, y and z about him, it adds to those who don't like him.*

There's a fair few non-Blues on here (@Alan Whittle, @Yid4life etc.) and I do wonder what their take is on him, both current and previously.

And to a final point: you say I am disingenuous. That's fine, but thinly veiled passive-aggressive comments for anything that counter a view is quite sour.

*which I'm not a part of.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Firstly, I said the counterargument may that it had been a purple patch, in reference to your post showing his scoring form at the time and 'short memories'.

Emphasis on the modal verb ‘may’, in that I don't think it's unjustified for people to infer that it does not definitely evidence he is a player of that calibre.

Have I, definitively, said it was a purple patch? Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough, but the point was those against Dom may use it as a counter.

My hope is that it wasn't a period of excess, and rather I do feel he has the ability to do well for us if he can rekindle his form, and the team assist him.

Yet, to counter-that, I do think he has to question and improve some parts of his game if he's going to break his duck; some of the missed chances are poor.

I do think he may score 10-12 elsewhere, and I do not think that's too conflicting in how I have praised and supported him over numerous years.

To add, his best career totals are 15 and 21, so it would be an improvement on his current totals, while not reaching the heights of 21-23. Is that unjustified?

Where have I said that? Genuinely, I'd like you to (like I've mentioned) trawl through my posts where I've said or perspicuously inferred anything of the such.

The reference to those players is based on the stats. Yes, I am not a fan of xG (again, look on here), but people will use statistics to support an argument.

When you put that, his goals per minute, overall goal tally together over his career, people will (in their eyes) justifiable paint a picture of a player.

It was you who raised the point that he scored x-number of goals through the tweet, so again does that not open the discussion of his other stats?

As do I - again, have a look. Nevertheless, when you objectively compare the likes of Jiminez and co. with Dom, my point was it was difficult for me to argue.

If people without our blue tinted glasses (or simply do not have the hope we have or need) are saying x, y and z about him, it adds to those who don't like him.*

There's a fair few non-Blues on here (@Alan Whittle, @Yid4life etc.) and I do wonder what their take is on him, both current and previously.

And to a final point: you say I am disingenuous. That's fine, but thinly veiled passive-aggressive comments for anything that counter a view is quite sour.

*which I'm not a part of.

You might be a nob head. Loads say you're a nob head. I'm not saying you're a nob head. I've said you're sound for years, like, but things change.

See the point?

 

[PhilM]

You might be a nob head. Loads say you're a nob head. I'm not saying you're a nob head. I've said you're sound for years, like, but things change.

See the point?

If you think I am something, then fine. And yes, views change as time goes by and the evidence builds up and whatnot. But I'll refer back to...

And to a final point: you say I am disingenuous. That's fine, but thinly veiled passive-aggressive comments for anything that counter a view is quite sour.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

If you think I am something, then fine. And yes, views change as time goes by and the evidence builds up and whatnot. But I'll refer back to...

Have some conviction Phil.

You waded in by contesting my point about Calvert-Lewin's goals prior his injuries. That's fine, but you don't get to pre-emptively head off any come back like so;

I think the counter-argument would be that it may have been a purple patch, rather than a true reflection of his overall capability to score goals.

Before you shoot back, I've been a long-term advocate and defender of Dom, and I do think there's a good player still there. However...

... I do think it's hard to not question him based on what we've seen recently, and further afield. When I currently watch him play, I don't see that same enthusiasm.

... or hide behind "I've supported him".

As I say, your posts come across as disingenuous. A cop out. Pulling short of directly saying he's no good/crap, but doing everything you can to imply it.

"People might say..."
"I'm not a fan of xG, but here's comprehensive xG data that shows Calvert-Lewin is crap"
"Lots of people who dislike Dom say...."
"My mate said he's like Ings or Abraham who han a handful of injuries before beset by injury an never prolific at scoring again and I couldn't disagree"

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

His confidence in front of goal seems shot. His general play is fine and he’s still an impressive athlete. I imagine he’s banging them in in training. Either he needs a break or a sports psychologist. Just carrying on as we are is not doing him, the team, or the fans any good I’m afraid…..

It seems to be a team issue, not just Dom though. We seem to get lost in the final third as a team.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

It comes down to mismanagement of the club again. Any other team would have squad depth and be able to rotate tired/out of form players. We don't and it is showing.

I think it is the same argument with doucoure. I've seen the stats that we don't win when he is out of the team and our fans say we'd be mad to sell him for that reason. But that ignores the fact that we have nobody else, which is why he seems vital to our team. Had sigurdsson still been around or Alli not perpetually injured, I doubt he'd be seen as such a vital player.

There's a conflation of loads of different arguments which is why the fans are divided. There's "what we need now", and then "what we need longer term".

It is mad we paid something like £30m on another striker who the majority of Evertonians don't think should be starting ahead of one who hasn't scored for 18 games.

I don't think it's fatigue/tiredness, I think it's this;

His confidence in front of goal seems shot. His general play is fine and he’s still an impressive athlete. I imagine he’s banging them in in training. Either he needs a break or a sports psychologist. Just carrying on as we are is not doing him, the team, or the fans any good I’m afraid…..

and not this;

He's just not very good, I'm not sure why more people just aren't acknowledging it now. He wouldn't start for any other team in the league, he hit a purple patch under Carlo and has been poor ever since. He pops up with the occasional goal every now and again but misses far more important chances.

His hold up play and finishing is terrible.

... And time will show it, I'm sure. Either at Everton, or elsewhere.

What I will say is - it does seem odd that for a long time now, even dud strikers who score elsewhere, don't score here. I'm thinking Rondon, King, Maupay.

When we finished in the nose bleeds places of 12th - we were very reliant on Calvert-Lewin;

Dominic Calvert-Lewin scored 34% of Everton’s 47 goals, meaning that no team that finished above 17th place relied more on one single player for a larger percentage of their goals.

He was then crocked for 2 seasons, is it a coincidence those 2 seasons we were also a whisker from going down?

He's been back this season and we should be 12th.

And this was before Bournemouth on the final day last season;

Three of Everton's seven Premier League wins this season have come with Calvert-Lewin in the team despite him missing 20 top-flight matches so far this campaign.

^ Palace Home, Arsenal Home, Brighton Away spring to mind.

No coincidence IMO when he come in last season he started in 2 of Dyches biggest wins.

His impact on the team is significant. He just needs to start scoring and I think he will.

 

[PhilM]

Have some conviction Phil.

You waded in by contesting my point about Calvert-Lewin's goals prior his injuries. That's fine, but you don't get to pre-emptively head off any come back like so;



... or hide behind "I've supported him".

As I say, your posts come across as disingenuous. A cop out. Pulling short of directly saying he's no good/crap, but doing everything you can to imply it.

"People might say..."
"I'm not a fan of xG, but here's comprehensive xG data that shows Calvert-Lewin is crap"
"Lots of people who dislike Dom say...."
"My mate said he's like Ings or Abraham who hand a handful of injuries before beset by injury an never prolific at scoring again and I couldn't disagree"

I am not attempting to pre-emptively head off comebacks. You've given your view, and I've countered it; my point is you're saying it is x, when I say it's y.

In terms of conviction, I've said to look back at my views on Dom, so to support that... this was back in October, in terms of your Beto point.

Errm, that only validates my point about a replacement. It's only early on, however currently it's fair to say that Dom > Beto.

I also have said...

Indeed. We rarely looked like scoring today, yet as you allude to I think that's part of how we set up. We were playing to disrupt and frustrate the RS.

Simply put, we played 75/25 for a draw or snatch a result, and to be fair it nearly worked. We need to get the boys up front being far more clinical.

When Dom came off and Beto came on, our chances of scoring plummeted further.

I have often said we should be playing him up front instead of others.

Are we? Dom knows how to score and will give their backline a challenge if he gets into the game. I think Danjuma coming on and running at them will help.

I mentioned this only earlier in the year in terms of my views of him, and what I was hoping.

He's looking more and more like the real centre-forward that we saw under Carlo. Just goes to show what confidence and belief can do for a player.

My son asked why he's never really had a song for Everton and it made me think, because he bloody deserves one.

I've talked about the ten goal a season mark earlier in the year, and I've stood by it again would you not say?

Last season, there were nine players who scored 14< (fifteen or more goals). In 21/2, there were eight, and the year before that there were seven.

When you look at the names, you see the few familiar names and clubs who are always or regularly there, sprinkled with the odd flash in the pan season.

Unless it's Kane, Salah, Son and a few others at those select clubs, the days of having a regular fifteen goal a season striker in the PL are well gone.

Based on that, I'd be content (not happy) with Dom getting ten or a few more per season, but again that's looking unlikely at the moment.

So based on all of the above, do you believe I am saying or have thought Dom is crap? Feel free to look back further than this year in your own time.

Anyway, if you think it's a cop out, again, so be it. In my view, I hope he can be a good player, who is just short on form, but right now I would say it's 70-30.

You may say it's lacking conviction, that's fine, but in my line of work you have to always consider the counter-argument and be open-minded to the facts.

I could come here and say, "I sincerely think Dom will be a top player again," but it would currently be foolhardy based on an analysis. Likewise...

...I'd contest anyone on here who said Dom is rubbish, because again I think it's foolhardy based on my belief and what we have seen in the past.

There isn't anything wrong with discussing the wider perspective of him or any other player, rather than being single-minded and stuck with our own view.

You're the boss on here, and you can act as you wish, I get it, but honestly it's coming across as you take anything against your view in a binary way.

It's this or it's that, and you'll throw a combative remark out rather than discussing it. With regard to Dom, well time will only tell I presume.

I hope he does well, for all our sakes.