ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 2

[Borussin]

Not sure about this better quality claim.

Karius, Klavan, VVD average but not worth the money, Wijnaldum etc

Salah had a good season but will never repeat it.

Keita will be exposed massively, simply isn't very good quite frankly. Fabinho, no idea really but behind Paulinho in the Brazil hierarchy and Paulie struggled over here.
Think we could Klopp have a meltdown next year. Worrying signs.

I would say there is a big difference in quality. Van Dijk may have cost a fortune, but he is absoluteley top class defender, at least they paid for quality, unlike in the past. Salah, Mane, Keita, Fabinho, Robertson, Wijnaldum, again, they get what they pay for, quality additions. When you buy players, you surely look first to improve on what you have, they seem to be doing that a lot more now. And Fabinho and Keita are big upgrade on players like Henderson, Milner and Can, so again improve on what they had. From signing like Markovich, Moreno, Mignolet, Sakho, Balotelli and Benkete to this, is quite a difference, I think so anyway. And that is what we as fans all ask of our teams I think, to improve on what we have.

Keita is a real talent only just beginning, we will agree to disagree on him I guess! I am glad he didn't sign for another team not called Dortmund in Germany put it that way. He is an unique player who can become a great player.

So indeed, we might have to agree to disagee on the better quality additions Steve!

 

[LEONARD]

Enough, cease, stop-it, leave all this admiration to the Red Echo.

 

[Huyton Layne]

 

[Wayno]

Mad how england fans have a reputation for being the kopites of International football, and all the RS hate england fans lol

They’re about as self aware as a cryogenically frozen head

 

[Yarrgh]

Buvac isn't going back. He's left, not sure where he is going, the talk was he interviewed for a couple jobs, including Eintracht Frankfurt, and he lives near Frankfurt so that makes sense, but he didn't get them. But he's not going back to Liverpool. It will be a massive loss though, working with the same assistant for 17 years, how could it not be a massive loss.

I don't think the same thing will happen regards the world cup with Liverpool. The problem at Dortmund was partly that we had 6 players coming back from Germany squad - and of course they went to the final so these players din't come back till very late - and all coming down from the massive high and celebrations of course after winning it. As well as some other players too. Not sure how many players Liverpool have there now, but I would guess only ones who has chances to go really deep into the tournament are Firmino and the England playes they have, if you feel confident! Plus so many other factors combined in that half a sason for us before we got back on track, I won't go into again, but I can't see it being a problem. The loss of Buvac though - that can.

I don't know the state of their finances, I know they have more or less been working on a very close to 0 net spend since Kloppo went there, but this summer it looks like they don't need to sell to buy - although maybe you can factor the 140 million from Coutino too into what they do this summer. For me the big difference is they are now getting a better class of player in. with Rodgers, they wasted so much money on really average players, and seemed to go for quantity above quality, Now they go for quality above quanity. Not sure on goalies, not really read much about who is linked apart from Alisson Becker, but it looks like he might go to Real Madrid. But I really can't see them being able to throw fees ike 70 million at a goalie.

Did the reason for Buvac leaving ever become known?

He is obviously well regarded, but to leave so abruptly at a key moment in the season was curious.

 

[summerisle]

 

[Borussin]

Did the reason for Buvac leaving ever become known?

He is obviously well regarded, but to leave so abruptly at a key moment in the season was curious.

I don't think anything was said publicly. I only read a couple articles in the German press that speculated really, so I don't know either! It was really strange, to walk out from a team just before some of the biggest games of the season was very curious indeed. The only thing I read that make some sort of sense was that he'd been speaking to other teams behind Klopp's back and he found out from someone at Dortmund, and they fell out. But even that would be strange, cos I can't imagine Buvac being so underhand to him. But then, in all the years Buvac was with Dortmund, he only ever did 1 interview that I recal, the man never spoke, so who knows what he's like, he's like a man of mystery!

 

[deipnosophist]

Mad how england fans have a reputation for being the kopites of International football, and all the RS hate england fans lol

They’re about as self aware as a cryogenically frozen head

lol lol ...very good

 

[catcherintherye]

Buvac isn't going back. He's left, not sure where he is going, the talk was he interviewed for a couple jobs, including Eintracht Frankfurt, and he lives near Frankfurt so that makes sense, but he didn't get them. But he's not going back to Liverpool. It will be a massive loss though, working with the same assistant for 17 years, how could it not be a massive loss.

I don't think the same thing will happen regards the world cup with Liverpool. The problem at Dortmund was partly that we had 6 players coming back from Germany squad - and of course they went to the final so these players din't come back till very late - and all coming down from the massive high and celebrations of course after winning it. As well as some other players too. Not sure how many players Liverpool have there now, but I would guess only ones who has chances to go really deep into the tournament are Firmino and the England playes they have, if you feel confident! Plus so many other factors combined in that half a sason for us before we got back on track, I won't go into again, but I can't see it being a problem. The loss of Buvac though - that can.

I don't know the state of their finances, I know they have more or less been working on a very close to 0 net spend since Kloppo went there, but this summer it looks like they don't need to sell to buy - although maybe you can factor the 140 million from Coutino too into what they do this summer. For me the big difference is they are now getting a better class of player in. with Rodgers, they wasted so much money on really average players, and seemed to go for quantity above quality, Now they go for quality above quanity. Not sure on goalies, not really read much about who is linked apart from Alisson Becker, but it looks like he might go to Real Madrid. But I really can't see them being able to throw fees ike 70 million at a goalie.

There is a lot in that. I do think Liverpool probably have more depth than Dortmund had and absolutely they are not going to have 6 players in the final. That being said they are going to have had a fair few players going quite deep into the competition. They will also have a lot at it full stop. Players like Mane, and even Salah who to me still looks to be carrying an injury have still not had a proper break since last July. He gives them what 4 weeks off to recoup and they are expected to go again in 2-3 weeks? I don't think you can underestimate the late champions league final as well. It's a bit of a perfect storm. Long hard season, world cup, earlier season start than normal, champions league qualifiers, high intensity game.

Buvac I think we are in agreement on. A massive loss for Klopp and even at the back end last season it really started to go downhill once the rumours of a bust up came. Losses at Chelsea and Roma, draws at Stoke and West Brom etc. It's a big test for Klopp.

As regard the finances there has been a big shift post January. Prior to that the summer before he arrived (so that season) they spent net 40 million (almost entirely by Rodgers) then made a 5 million profit before last season spending about 30 million net (underpinned by the Coutinho sale). This summer the net spend looks like 100 million already, with Fekir close to being done at 55 and a goalkeeper from 35 (Butland) up to 75 (Alison). Whichever way you dice it, it's 200-250 million quid so unless Salah goes it's a substantial investment over the last 12 months where the policy has certainly changed.

They are going much heavier now, regularly recruiting lads at over 40 million. The sales of Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho for exorbitant money (which I still believe is the plan for Salah) have allowed that. They have sold off most of the "family silver" and easy sales so there aren't many places left to go for them to fund this summers spending spree. Either Salah goes or you are putting a 9 figure sum onto the debt. It's a big gamble, which will be ok all the while they have CL, but lose CL and have commitments to these signings (with fees staggered across a contract and there will be problems). This is essentially what did for Benitez.

I think next season is a really big one for Klopp. Going into a 4th year without winning a trophy will be a bridge too far. He has been backed substantially, net, gross or any other way you look at it. The issue will be can his teams play with the same intensity coming off a very long season previously, a world cup campaign and an early start. Will European teams play into his hands again by showing them little respect. And if they cannot match the intensity, will lesser teams in the PL effectively frustrate Liverpool by sitting deep and negating the counter?

They are cock a hoop. Understandably so. They are signing proven good players. Lets see though.

 

[catcherintherye]

Ings, Benteke & Origi, I agree on. Sturridge, I believe could have been world class if he hadn't been made of glass! In all his time at Liverpool, I don't think he made 100 appearances in all comps, but still scored 60 odd goals. A top class strike-rate by most people's reckonings, so I could understand the fans going a bit OTT about how good he could have been.

Liverpool have recently all too often sold key players on; Salah has been there one season and been fantastic. If they'd sold him now, they'd have been vilified and the hysteria on this forum would've been through the roof. For some to have a go at them for not selling him as his stock MAY be at an all-time high, is clutching to say the least.

Only time will tell with Liverpool's finances, but again, if they don't spend big (Klopp has been operating pretty much on a sell-to-buy basis up to this summer) they're criticised for being small-time, and if they do invest, it's a case of "they'll be Leeds as soon as they finish 5th in the PL".

You can't have it all ways.

I can only comment on my own views mate not others, but you are right on consistency, which I try to be.

My own theory on Sturridge was he always ensured he was fully rested up, and rarely played unless 100%. I think if most strikers did that, they would have a similar if not better record. I remember Klopp saying he needed to know what "real pain" was or whatever, dropping him from the team and insist he had to complete x amount of training sessions before he could play. That told me everything I needed to know about the player, his attitude, his views to injury and the quite lax approach to training he had. He has 63 in 133 so not bad, but considering thats over 6 years it's about 10 goals a season (or an average of 8 league goals a season). It's a very modest record and it doesn't surprise me he's only scored more than 12 once in a season. I doubt that will ever change as well.

I think Liverpool, in selling Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho have done fantastic business. Whatever those players went on to achieve, at the moment they were sold Liverpool got great fees (exception being perhaps Suarez, though I imagine he'd have been heavily targeted staying in England). It has taken you until Klopp to really invest those fees prudently. I agree people would be lynched for selling Salah, but I maintain flipping for 150+ million and bringing in 2-3 top players would strengthen Liverpool further. Thats probably not a popular view for reds but it's my view.

I have you down as spending 60 million in the 3 summers before this. Not a substantial investment by any stretch and money well spent (though of course Coutinho greatly distorts those figures). The debt stands at close to 300 million. If Liverpool spend upwards of 200 million without a major sale it's hard not to see more money being added to this and a substantial amount at that. Not a problem is and of itself but if you were to miss out on the CL it could become one. You're some way off being Leeds if you finish 5th, but it will be interesting to see how deep they go in backing Klopp. Can you see Oblak at 80-100 million?

 

[brieverton]

David Maddock seems to have been entirely consumed by the kopite cult.

At least I prefer when hacks make their obvious biases clear, not that it takes much deciphering anyway.

It’s silverware or bust for Klippity this season, he can’t stand pressure as it is so more of him in full-blown meltdown will make an amusing sideshow to wherever issues we’re having.

 

[catcherintherye]

David Maddock seems to have been entirely consumed by the kopite cult.

At least I prefer when hacks make their obvious biases clear, not that it takes much deciphering anyway.

It’s silverware or bust for Klippity this season, he can’t stand pressure as it is so more of him in full-blown meltdown will make an amusing sideshow to wherever issues we’re having.

Paddock seems to have gone nuts yes. He's worse than the likes of Pearce which is really a low bar to fail to overcome.

If they don't get it right this season, it smacks me of the Benitez MK 2 nastiness and divisiveness. Deep splits pro and anti-Klopp. Similar along the FSG lines. A piling up debt that needs servicing. Unfortunately the last time it happened it didn't follow itself to the logical ends, seeing them go the Leeds route. FSG will be far harder to get to pay for their mistakes. Lets see.

Can you imagine how their fanbase would deal with a Leeds style relegation? There would be "free Tommy" style vandalism and marches across the home counties. It would be a glorious social experiment.

 

[ToffeeDan]

Loving this World Cup but it seems that the meeja are ramping up the "Dis is arr yeear" nonsense so that, in a fortnight, we will have forgotten all about Sir Harry and the boys bringing it home and we'll be back to speculating how many points der Mighty Redz will win the (Alternative) Premier League by.

 

[havrey0123]

Where are people pulling 300m from.
115m of that came from fsg as loan to Liverpool for the new stand interest free, similar to how moshiri gave and interest free loan to Everton.
The new stand takes in 15m a season (with cl football), in 8 seasons it pays off it self.
They have an additional 75m to spend this season to getting to the cl final. Hence fabiniho and Keita signings.

Expect them to raise around 60m selling players like sturridge, markovich, lallana karius, mignolet, clyne, gets around 450k a week off the books which raises funds for a fekir type player.

That leaves a keeper to buy which will be from their own pocket, they will probably use next seasons cl money as collateral for that.

It's not rocket science to see what there doing and how they are doing it. And no I'm not a kopite but comparing them to Leeds when there net spend since klopp has been there before this transfer window is zero is ridiculous.

 

[Skamp]

I can only comment on my own views mate not others, but you are right on consistency, which I try to be.

My own theory on Sturridge was he always ensured he was fully rested up, and rarely played unless 100%. I think if most strikers did that, they would have a similar if not better record. I remember Klopp saying he needed to know what "real pain" was or whatever, dropping him from the team and insist he had to complete x amount of training sessions before he could play. That told me everything I needed to know about the player, his attitude, his views to injury and the quite lax approach to training he had. He has 63 in 133 so not bad, but considering thats over 6 years it's about 10 goals a season (or an average of 8 league goals a season). It's a very modest record and it doesn't surprise me he's only scored more than 12 once in a season. I doubt that will ever change as well.

I think Liverpool, in selling Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho have done fantastic business. Whatever those players went on to achieve, at the moment they were sold Liverpool got great fees (exception being perhaps Suarez, though I imagine he'd have been heavily targeted staying in England). It has taken you until Klopp to really invest those fees prudently. I agree people would be lynched for selling Salah, but I maintain flipping for 150+ million and bringing in 2-3 top players would strengthen Liverpool further. Thats probably not a popular view for reds but it's my view.

I have you down as spending 60 million in the 3 summers before this. Not a substantial investment by any stretch and money well spent (though of course Coutinho greatly distorts those figures). The debt stands at close to 300 million. If Liverpool spend upwards of 200 million without a major sale it's hard not to see more money being added to this and a substantial amount at that. Not a problem is and of itself but if you were to miss out on the CL it could become one. You're some way off being Leeds if you finish 5th, but it will be interesting to see how deep they go in backing Klopp. Can you see Oblak at 80-100 million?

Fair points and I wouldn't argue with most of them, though the "Coutinho greatly distorts the figures" line often thrown about irks me a little. Point is, if Liverpool hadn't sold Coutinho for such a hefty sum, they'd have been unlikely to have bought VVD, Ox and maybe one other. If you lose a £140m player, you have to replace with like or a cople of strong players to keep the squad in a similar state.

People like to cite the money Liverpool have spent, but as you've said, in recent years, compared to the majority of PL clubs, it's been very low.

I'd be amazed if we did spend that big on a top keeper, but it's something Liverpool need to do, as there hasn't been a (close to) top keeper at Anfield since Reina and then back to probably Grobbelaar (for those of us who rated him) prior to that.

There's been some intent with the signings coming in this summer, but what i will say is, love or loathe Klopp, his transfer dealings so far have been largely exceptional, as virtually every play he's bought the last 2 years have become pretty much regular first-teamers and most have appreciated in value.

Will be interesting to see who else is signed and with maybe 2 more key signings, think Liverpool will be tough to beat next season.

Time will tell......