Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

  • Participation within this subforum is only available to members who have had 5+ posts approved elsewhere.

ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

I mean by the looks of it if Pickford hadn’t clattered VVD it’d only have been about 2 weeks before he broke down injured anyway. To continue to get players to play as they do every game in the current circumstances is akin to lunacy

Given the immediate venom aimed towards Pickford for what was nothing more than a clumsy tackle I'm convinced he was already injured and they've used the incident to cover themselves / damage us.

VVD's early season performances against Leeds and Aston Villa were conical. I've always considered him overrated but there was some drop off in his game there.

#Imperious No More.
 
It's very worrying for them. See Fabian Delph really. I said it a few days back, if it's snapped his groin (which it will be for surgery) it will not recover to the level it did before. I love Joyce's 6-8 weeks prognosis. No doubt on 6 weeks they will all be bemoaning bad luck that he's not back at full pelt. That will be 6 weeks until he can probably begin light jogging on it.

And yes, what he did in that game, carry the ball at pace will be gone from his game. There will be a residual weakness in the groin and at 31, he will not be able to recover that to where it was. He will probably only be able to be a sitter, who sits in midfield and knocks passes after this, which for all the lads strengths is not really his game. He has always been an all action midfielder.

Surgery on a muscle injury, like what we tried to avoid with Gbamin is never a good sign.

That squad has been poorly mismanaged in the long term and now needs serious work. I have no idea why they praise Michael Edwards as he’s created a time bomb for the next manager.

Can left on a free, Wijnaldum will leave on a free, Lallana left on a free, Milner will retire soon. That’s seriously bad practice to let 4 players you actually want to keep and have value walk out for nothing. They’re left with Henderson (who will now have problems as you’ve said), Thiago (injury prone and no resale value), Keita (terrible buy, plummeted in value, never fit), Curtis Jones (not as good as those leaving), and Fabinho (one of their few prime assets). Klopp will be going back to FSG asking for more money in the summer for two extra midfielders or he risks once again burning out the ones he does have. He’ll be essentially hoping that Fabinho Thiago Keita stay fit and play every game because he’ll only have one or two sub par options to rotate them with.

Upfront is a disaster. Three players on mega contracts all declining, all who either want a move or want a new even bigger contract. All not as good as they were.

In defence they have two good fullbacks but what state will any of those centrebacks come back in? Klopp will again be wanting more money.

Compare that to City who have gradually transferred out even good players for fees (Boateng, Sane, Negredo, Navas, Dzeko Otamendi Angelino etc. and refreshed the squad with younger players Bernardo Stones Dias, Laporte, Sterling Foden.

Even looking at our squad, whilst it doesn’t hVe the same quality right now the long term prospects are better. DCL Richalrison are two of the best striking prospects in the league and could demand a huge fee. Holgate Godfrey Branthwaite are all young at the back. It’s only really midfield where we have predominately older players that may need replacing in the near future.
 
That squad has been poorly mismanaged in the long term and now needs serious work. I have no idea why they praise Michael Edwards as he’s created a time bomb for the next manager.

Can left on a free, Wijnaldum will leave on a free, Lallana left on a free, Milner will retire soon. That’s seriously bad practice to let 4 players you actually want to keep and have value walk out for nothing. They’re left with Henderson (who will now have problems as you’ve said), Thiago (injury prone and no resale value), Keita (terrible buy, plummeted in value, never fit), Curtis Jones (not as good as those leaving), and Fabinho (one of their few prime assets). Klopp will be going back to FSG asking for more money in the summer for two extra midfielders or he risks once again burning out the ones he does have. He’ll be essentially hoping that Fabinho Thiago Keita stay fit and play every game because he’ll only have one or two sub par options to rotate them with.

Upfront is a disaster. Three players on mega contracts all declining, all who either want a move or want a new even bigger contract. All not as good as they were.

In defence they have two good fullbacks but what state will any of those centrebacks come back in? Klopp will again be wanting more money.

Compare that to City who have gradually transferred out even good players for fees (Boateng, Sane, Negredo, Navas, Dzeko Otamendi Angelino etc. and refreshed the squad with younger players Bernardo Stones Dias, Laporte, Sterling Foden.

Even looking at our squad, whilst it doesn’t hVe the same quality right now the long term prospects are better. DCL Richalrison are two of the best striking prospects in the league and could demand a huge fee. Holgate Godfrey Branthwaite are all young at the back. It’s only really midfield where we have predominately older players that may need replacing in the near future.

Edwards is a funny one, and there is a bit of a cult around Edwards for them (in te same way we had one around Brands for a period, though it's more balanced now). My view is you DOF (and I appreciate they take different titles" job is to support the manager. In football now, they are increasingly viewed as the main person. The reality is, recruitment stands or falls on the manager.

Rodgers people essentially named Edwards as a major problem. He was seen as akin to Steve Walsh here, and had presided over the summer debacled where they sold Suarez for 60m, and spent 60m on Balotelli, Lambert & Benteke to replace him. It was a disatser. I think they signed Lallana and Lovren that summer who both initially flopped too. They ended up spending 200m to finish 8th or something,

The "independant variable" for Edwards was Klopp. Klopp actually made a lot of these players better. And again in truth, Klopp insisting they broke with his mathematical model to pay more for Alisson & VVD was key. Before they arrived they were a 4th place team, Those 2 world class players took them to being a title winning/challenging team. They were the key missing ingredient and it was Klopp as opposed to Edwards who insisted on both.

In honesty, his record on other players is actually quite patchy. Salah is probably his one big success (but again I'd say a lot of that is Klopp maximising him, I'm not sure he's world class in any other team). Keita, Lallana, Lovren, Chamberalin, Clyne, Minamino, Origi, Karius, Mignolet, Shaqiri, Can, Lambert, Balotelli, Borini, Benteke have completely flopped, even working within a preferential a hugely successful team. There's probaly 300m+ spent there (plus huge wages). All of them are Edwards numbers signings. I mean if you go back further you have the likes of Carroll et al where money was completely wasted.

In terms of squad management, it's been poor yes, but I think they have allowed Klopp too much autonoamy. He has obviously not wanted to break up his team, and Edwards has probably not been strong enough to insist on it. It's partly why I think, especilly give Klopp's behaviour, they will want a yes man in next who will allow for more committee type signings. Youd imagine FSG retrench into what they know.

They have curious few assetts at the 26 and under point. Arnold is probably the one who stands out, but his value will have tumbled this ear during what has been a pretty awful season for him. The rest are either older, or have serious injuries they are recovering from. I mean they go on about Jota, but they paid £45m he also has had a nasty injury, and has scored 5 league goals. They go on like he's Maradona but he won't score 10 league goals this season (which for a forward is a pretty poor return for £45m). Even Fabinho who I like, will be 28 when the new season has begun and has started to pick up lots of injuries, I'm really not convinced anyone gives them anywhere near the £45m they paid for him with those injuries piling up.

You can see the warning signs on the horizon, before you put the kind of treble of additional problems they hav being 1- prices plummeting for players in their late 20s and above, 2- the financial damage of covid and 3- potentially no CL. All of those points will exacerbate some pretty bad squad management.

So yes I struggle a bit with the cult of Edwards they have. He's made some really interesting buys, but I do think a lot of them was when a good manager was having a great time of it and everything was going in their favour. When you actuslly analyse the recruitment, it's a bit more up and down than just the good 2-3 years under Klopp.
 
Given the immediate venom aimed towards Pickford for what was nothing more than a clumsy tackle I'm convinced he was already injured and they've used the incident to cover themselves / damage us.

VVD's early season performances against Leeds and Aston Villa were conical. I've always considered him overrated but there was some drop off in his game there.

#Imperious No More.
Definitely something not right about that injury, walked the longest route off the pitch with barely a limp only to be pronounced dead, the propaganda against pickford and Everton was over the top even for them, he was a liability at the start of the season , shipped 7 against villa and should of been 6 against leeds.
 
Sorry catcher - the number of injuries is a ridiculous basis for your argument (I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment by the way) To compare an ACL to a sore toe which misses one game or 11 days is folly, they are both one injury, but have very very different consequences.

My take is they have had alot of injuries & are particularly unfortunate for so many to happen in on position, which has undoubtedly had multiple domino effects, such as the form of the full-backs, midfielders out of midfield etc.

but....... There has also been huge mismanagement, they should have backed at least one of the younger centre backs (Phillips IMHO); they should have "adjusted" rather than going on with the same system with different personnel & whether it be klopp or the owners, it was a horrific error not having a CB signed for the 1st Jan.

I'm not sure comparing the number of injured players is "ridiculous" mate, it is a worthwhile measurement in it's own right. I mean we have also had long term injuries too in our list, including a player who has been out about 19 months, so it's not all short term injuries for us either. It gives an flabour of a particular measure though, that we have lost more players, albeit probably for a shorter period of time in general. Both are important indicators too, severity and quantity. We are ahead in one, they the other. What annoys me, is it seems to be used as a cure all excuse for Liverpool, yet I'm not sure it's even been mentioned regarding Everton? On the same measures used for Liverpool, we are ahead on one, and right at the top of the league on the other in terms of Liverpool, but it's just not noted. Clearly, if you are smart enough, you can still prosper with injuries. Thats what the evidence shows.

Re the domino affect I do agree. I mean, without wishing to crow I did mention this to you in the autumn/winter that I felt they were at risk of that said domino affect. You could see even back then, Klopp was doing really stupid things. Like playing Matip and Gomes every week when both are very injury (Gomes less so in raw terms, but factor in he's 23 and he is extremely injury prone relative to his age). I don't understand the thinking. As you say he should have done Matip & Williams one week, and Gomes & Phillips the next game. Ensured everyone got enough rest, and maybe the injuries would have slowed a bit (even though results would have dropped off).

The comments re Henderson really worried me as well (as a neutral). He tried to run off a major muscle injury that needs surgery, and Klopp/medical team didn't just hook him off straight away. VVD walked off the pitch not on a stretcher. Thiago kept playing after an injury. It smacks of negligence. Apparently Henderson had niggles in his groin, and had probably strained it, but was being sent out every week to play. It was out of position, and in honesty he was playing badly. I don't see any upside to playing him, and then he gets a bad tear. Thats not bad luck, that is complete stupidity.

Your point about managing a difficult situation is absolutely right by the way. They were 1st in late December. They had recovere to a degree. I think they have had the worst of every world. They haven't managed the squad early enough not to break their squad, but nor have they played a core group and guarenteed top 4. You sort of think, ahd he rotated from the autumn, they may not have won the league, but would have got top 4 and not dismantled the squad. Now the squad phases a host of quite seirous muscle injuries and also the season is spiralling. This is best exemplified by the decision to play Jota in a nothing CL for his own vanity. That some reds still defend this decision is baffling. It's truly baffling. The one squad rotation guy they had up front, they sent to go and get injured. Nuts.

As for January 1st and a CB I think there is a lot more going on there, but appreciate this post is quite long enough. In general though, I think Edwards, FSG and Klopp's relationship is at best very strained and a game of brinkmanship probably occurred. I don't think it coincidence at all that it was leaked Klopp only wanted Koulibaly. Wholly unrealistic and the actions of a petulant child who's looking for a way out in my view. That he has not played 1 of gis new CB's bought also tells you a lot.

But yes. While I take your points (and do agree the injuries have been concentrated) on two important measures there's nothing atypical about their season. They've had less players than us out (and we have also had long term injuries) and in terms of the last 4 champions, their injury rate the following season (excluding short term injuries) is again fairly standard. The flip is also true with the concentration, that yes CB's may be bad, but they've ended up with every area of the pitch suffering, and this really can't be blamed on CB's when they are pretty much full strength in all other areas. As you rightly say, he could have easily stuck any 2 in, and gone for the old "we will outscore you" approach, but I sense this "poor me" pathos that surrounds him and them has become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. It's that, rather than a fairly standard range for injuries that has done them in.
 

The momentum both ways is astonishing to be honest. It's taken just over 12 months for Ancelotti to catch them. We've done really well, but they have collapsed.

The question really becomes, at what point are they hitting rock bottom. I mean it may be rock bottom now, but I would not lay odds on that.
I may have said it before...somewhere...that I see similarities to EFC post 1970, even losing thier talisman centre half.
The manager making strange selections,
buying really sub par players
Next comes selling a crowd favourite..or two.

At least I hope so
 
Definitely something not right about that injury, walked the longest route off the pitch with barely a limp only to be pronounced dead, the propaganda against pickford and Everton was over the top even for them, he was a liability at the start of the season , shipped 7 against villa and should of been 6 against leeds.
Didn't they start treating his 'none Pickford' leg at first...reckon he was carrying an Injury
 
Definitely something not right about that injury, walked the longest route off the pitch with barely a limp only to be pronounced dead, the propaganda against pickford and Everton was over the top even for them, he was a liability at the start of the season , shipped 7 against villa and should of been 6 against leeds.
Liverpool shipped thirteen goals in the five games they played with VVD before his injury an average of 2.6 goals per game
They shipped only 8 goals in the next 12 games without him an average of 0.65 goals per game over a longer period.
So the rot had set well in before he was injured. It's just an easy get out of jail card for them to use and a compliant and sycophantic media
to support it.
 
I may have said it before...somewhere...that I see similarities to EFC post 1970, even losing thier talisman centre half.
The manager making strange selections,
buying really sub par players
Next comes selling a crowd favourite..or two.

At least I hope so

It's funny you say that, as recently my mind scanned to that team too. It was a complete collapse for Everton and really the key turning point in them being firmly in our shadow. We had won trophies than them up until the mid 1970's and had never won less than them in our existence until that point.

I looked at sides who had basically fell off a cliff after a title win. I thought of our team under Harvey in 88 but even that side finished 4th. They look to me to be a side who will fall much further than that. It is like a 1970 fall from grace at present. Lets hope it has the same wider impact.
 

Liverpool shipped thirteen goals in the five games they played with VVD before his injury an average of 2.6 goals per game
They shipped only 8 goals in the next 12 games without him an average of 0.65 goals per game over a longer period.
So the rot had set well in before he was injured. It's just an easy get out of jail card for them to use and a compliant and sycophantic media
to support it.

I was thinking this on my run earlier.

Their defenders are being slaughtered, but in honesty the defenders have actually done ok. They conceded 13 in 5 games with Van Dijk and 1 of those games Chelsea played the majority of the game with 10 men. So against 11, 13 in 4. From the following 20 games they've conceded 21 goals. While this isn't quite title winning form, it's certainly top 4 form. The issue has been eveeryone else in the team. Wijnaldum and the CB's have done fine.

The rest of their team, relying on attack hasn't delivered. Arnold has been poor as has Robertson. Firmino has been useless, Mane has been a shadow of himself, while Thiago has probably been the flop of the season. Those are the question that need to be directed at Klopp.

They have had 1 area of the team that has been hit, but he's allowed all other aspects to break. City have had similar by the way with strikers being out. And it's affected the goal output, but the rest of the team have stepped up. Thats the difference. Pep hasn't allowed a crisis in 1 position to be used as an excuse for every other position.
 
They've juiced up to the max for the only goal they cared and achieved the target they'll slowly fall off a cliff, ageing squad and a manager who will leave sooner or later for the national team, If Van Dijk isn't 100% back to how he was they are finished.
 

Welcome to GrandOldTeam

Get involved. Registration is simple and free.

Back
Top