ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

[Deleted member 24970]

I've no idea if Gerry is a kopite but either way hes been pretty on point with his posts on this subject tbh



A kopite who has bought Everton tickets from other Everton fans on this forum, I must be a pretty dedicated troll.

Did you buy them and bring copies of the sun into the Everton end and wave it about ? I heard there were a few from Soloman's POV.

 

[Khalekan]

The reality is them denying us the champions league in 1986 is their greatest achievement in their heads. Such is the bitterness and inferiority they feel, they would celebrate an action that prevented us rather than one that helped them.

Oh and as for top 6 they finished 8th last season (under the best manager in the world). We are currently 7th which is considered best of the rest. Enjoy the Orwellian logic of a Joliet there.

The other reality and what might seem an inconvenient truth for them is that 5th is still "best of the rest" and currently it is they whom are in pole position to lift that dubious accolade.

 

[brieverton]

I find that I must regularly rein my thoughts in and proverbially hold my tongue, when discussing "them".

I have quite a few LFC friends and work colleagues, and find them to a man, decent folk, some being privately embarrassed by the antics of their club and wider support.

The holier-than-thou attitude that is widespread, and the fawning over every other league clubs efforts for the Hillsborough memorial every year, are nauseating in the context of their own history. No attempt is made to commemorate other disasters, including Heysel, and so the hierarchy of victimhood is very firmly maintained.

Worse still however, is the media co-opting of this strategy to such a degree that they have an army of cheerleaders and apologists in every organisation.

I accept banter and rivalry, but their jibes and digs are often quite hard to stomach, given the absolute and deserved support we have given them for JFT96. They are the big brother that can't stand us getting any attention or credit. I actually thought that "Merry Christmas, Everton" was quite amusing though, I wish the more creative and imaginative of our fans could come up with a fitting response. All in jest, of course.

 

[Prevenger17]

I don't remember any Evertonian singing always the victim.

The murderers chant in the abstract is ridiculous. The problem is football doesn't exist in the same world. Much like swearing.

The two issues I have are thus. One Liverpool regularly gloat and swear towards Everton about not winning the European cup. This was denied of Evertons greatest teams and likewise so too was our chance at defending the cup
Winners cup. If we are talking about humility around the disaster does singing those songs, Steau Bucharest shirts, scarves and banners that are on display in the Liverpool end should surely be treated as equivalent to singing murderers?

The second point for me is I fundamentally don't think most Liverpool fans have really learned. If you look at the antics over the years in Europe, Munich chants, fans in opposing ends fighting with locals, attacking Sevilla fans while a few hours earlier getting plastered and goading Everton fans they'd never experience it (we won't as such violence would rightly be condemned), talking about bricking pubs that host rival football fans and being in scouse for not doing so etc etc. The list could go on. It's what made Platini describe the supporters as the worst in the world. A group of fans who bring shame on our city.

A lot of it dates back to Heysel for me. When did it become acceptable to frame it as "The Italians and busies had no bottle". Why would they need bottle? If people behaved as they ought?

I don't think singing murderers is massively clever or productive but neither are the attempts to shut down the debate by Liverpool fans and tarnish anyone who dares to question the impact as morally bankrupt. The debate ought to be had and most Juventus fans I've spoken to view LFC fans as murderers.

If the club were serious about showing contrition rather than mocking teams affected surely they could go some way to repair the damage? 4 English clubs per season were denied entry into European football as a result of the "bottle" of the Kopite squads of Europe. That comes to 20
Years lost. Surely the decent thing to do would be to say over the next 2 decades they will withdraw from any European competition and allow the next English team to have it instead? It will by no means erase the damage they have done, but it would be a classy gesture that some degree of ownership and acknowledgement was being taken to address the wrongs.

However such an act would require class and dignity. It will mean it will never happen.

I love you Catcher

 

[Roger Milla]

That apology to Juve in 2005 came 20 years too late and they only apologised because they feared for their own fans safety in the return game in Turin. Horrible murderous club that can do one.

 

[canuckblue]

I find that I must regularly rein my thoughts in and proverbially hold my tongue, when discussing "them".

I have quite a few LFC friends and work colleagues, and find them to a man, decent folk, some being privately embarrassed by the antics of their club and wider support.

The holier-than-thou attitude that is widespread, and the fawning over every other league clubs efforts for the Hillsborough memorial every year, are nauseating in the context of their own history. No attempt is made to commemorate other disasters, including Heysel, and so the hierarchy of victimhood is very firmly maintained.

Worse still however, is the media co-opting of this strategy to such a degree that they have an army of cheerleaders and apologists in every organisation.

I accept banter and rivalry, but their jibes and digs are often quite hard to stomach, given the absolute and deserved support we have given them for JFT96. They are the big brother that can't stand us getting any attention or credit. I actually thought that "Merry Christmas, Everton" was quite amusing though, I wish the more creative and imaginative of our fans could come up with a fitting response. All in jest, of course.

Uh, we're the big brother.

 

[GerryandthePaceMerchants]

I don't remember any Evertonian singing always the victim.

The murderers chant in the abstract is ridiculous. The problem is football doesn't exist in the same world. Much like swearing.

The two issues I have are thus. One Liverpool regularly gloat and swear towards Everton about not winning the European cup. This was denied of Evertons greatest teams and likewise so too was our chance at defending the cup
Winners cup. If we are talking about humility around the disaster does singing those songs, Steau Bucharest shirts, scarves and banners that are on display in the Liverpool end should surely be treated as equivalent to singing murderers?

The second point for me is I fundamentally don't think most Liverpool fans have really learned. If you look at the antics over the years in Europe, Munich chants, fans in opposing ends fighting with locals, attacking Sevilla fans while a few hours earlier getting plastered and goading Everton fans they'd never experience it (we won't as such violence would rightly be condemned), talking about bricking pubs that host rival football fans and being in scouse for not doing so etc etc. The list could go on. It's what made Platini describe the supporters as the worst in the world. A group of fans who bring shame on our city.

A lot of it dates back to Heysel for me. When did it become acceptable to frame it as "The Italians and busies had no bottle". Why would they need bottle? If people behaved as they ought?

I don't think singing murderers is massively clever or productive but neither are the attempts to shut down the debate by Liverpool fans and tarnish anyone who dares to question the impact as morally bankrupt. The debate ought to be had and most Juventus fans I've spoken to view LFC fans as murderers.

If the club were serious about showing contrition rather than mocking teams affected surely they could go some way to repair the damage? 4 English clubs per season were denied entry into European football as a result of the "bottle" of the Kopite squads of Europe. That comes to 20
Years lost. Surely the decent thing to do would be to say over the next 2 decades they will withdraw from any European competition and allow the next English team to have it instead? It will by no means erase the damage they have done, but it would be a classy gesture that some degree of ownership and acknowledgement was being taken to address the wrongs.

However such an act would require class and dignity. It will mean it will never happen.

Good post and thanks for replying as opposed to chucking insults. Agree with a lot of it but some points I feel need addressing.

The bold I'm not sure the song you mean, they sing the "five times" when they play Plymouth or Stoke so I'm not sure it's directed at us and a subtle nod to our European ban (don't think anyone who would want to do that would be clever enough). The rest of the examples you've given there bring me back to a point I've made before about the internet age making everything a sweeping statement, one person wearing a Bucharest scarf becomes "fans in scarfs and shirts" one Fanta scruff becomes fans goading Everton, a few dickheads scrapping becomes the whole fanbase bringing shame on a city, just like a couple of idiots singing "always the victim" becomes a whole away end. Its contributed directly to the horrible bitter stink in football since the Premier league kicked off. Twitter is the main culprit, with all this talk of "fake news" i think a lot of the accusations that fly round about football fans in general can fall into that category.

Are you suggesting that a self imposed 20 year ban should start today or that it should've taken place in 1985?

 

[Prevenger17]

Did you buy them and bring copies of the sun into the Everton end and wave it about ? I heard there were a few from Soloman's POV.

Longers' allegiance is beyond question. I think he, like other Everton fans who are uneasy with the chant, might feel it is too indiscriminately aimed, and I can see how it might be an uncomfortable topic to those whose friends and family are reds.

That being said, I personally feel it is absolutely fair game and LFC's treatment of the whole affair has been a historic disgrace that they have never even shown the slightest interest in correcting. For me, that's the crux of it. They cynically hijack every other tragedy to enhance their brand and disown the one that they caused. For clarity's sake, I don't include Hillsborough in that sentiment.

 

[paulbefc]

Good post and thanks for replying as opposed to chucking insults. Agree with a lot of it but some points I feel need addressing.

The bold I'm not sure the song you mean, they sing the "five times" when they play Plymouth or Stoke so I'm not sure it's directed at us and a subtle nod to our European ban (don't think anyone who would want to do that would be clever enough). The rest of the examples you've given there bring me back to a point I've made before about the internet age making everything a sweeping statement, one person wearing a Bucharest scarf becomes "fans in scarfs and shirts" one Fanta scruff becomes fans goading Everton, a few dickheads scrapping becomes the whole fanbase bringing shame on a city, just like a couple of idiots singing "always the victim" becomes a whole away end. Its contributed directly to the horrible bitter stink in football since the Premier league kicked off. Twitter is the main culprit, with all this talk of "fake news" i think a lot of the accusations that fly round about football fans in general can fall into that category.

Are you suggesting that a self imposed 20 year ban should start today or that it should've taken place in 1985?

I always wondered this about Heysel: how many dickheads have to be involved to indirectly kill 39 people?

 

[Boss_Blue]

Are you suggesting that a self imposed 20 year ban should start today or that it should've taken place in 1985?

I reckon we just ban the club completely.

 

[Prevenger17]

I reckon we just ban the club completely.

Yup, seriously needs looking into.

 

[GerryandthePaceMerchants]

At this point I'm going to show class and dignity and withdraw from this subject and add it to the "can't be discussed sensibly" list. I don't usually post that much on this thread anymore but got triggered.

 

[Boss_Blue]

I'm going to show class and dignity

Shame that other shower of nobheads can't do the same.

 

[d34noj]

Good post and thanks for replying as opposed to chucking insults. Agree with a lot of it but some points I feel need addressing.

The bold I'm not sure the song you mean, they sing the "five times" when they play Plymouth or Stoke so I'm not sure it's directed at us and a subtle nod to our European ban (don't think anyone who would want to do that would be clever enough). The rest of the examples you've given there bring me back to a point I've made before about the internet age making everything a sweeping statement, one person wearing a Bucharest scarf becomes "fans in scarfs and shirts" one Fanta scruff becomes fans goading Everton, a few dickheads scrapping becomes the whole fanbase bringing shame on a city, just like a couple of idiots singing "always the victim" becomes a whole away end. Its contributed directly to the horrible bitter stink in football since the Premier league kicked off. Twitter is the main culprit, with all this talk of "fake news" i think a lot of the accusations that fly round about football fans in general can fall into that category.

Are you suggesting that a self imposed 20 year ban should start today or that it should've taken place in 1985?

That's just it, it's not 'a few'... it's every single time they play. Whether they are tipping over Ambulances, stealing tickets, beating bystanders up, pushing walls over, throwing excrement at opposing fans, forcing their way through turnstiles, singing songs about the dead, waving banners to goad the opposition...

Quite sure I've missed plenty out - I'd say all of that makes them fair game.

 

[Kinghowie]

I'm also convinced there is generation aspect to all this. My father and uncle are both Everton fans and despise the toxic atmosphere around derbys nowadays. When I was a kid I used the term murderers infront of them and got absolutely savaged by them for it.

It generally seems to me that it's the younger fans who go on about heysel the most and use it for point scoring whereas the older generation who were actually adults when it happened have a more rational outlook.



You said a "couple of blues" suggesting me and Gerry are kopites.

It's defo a generation thing. Some older Blues view Heysel as our SOLE downfall, blame them for everything that has happened to our club despite us playing a massive part in it ourselves. This gets passed onto the younger generation, who's hatred is only fuelled it. Was there as much hatred between both clubs in the proceeding years after Heysel? Of course not. The years of bad decisions by our Club, and therefore, decades of mediocrity made Heysel a convenient scapegoat.
I'm not disputing that Heysel played its part in splitting a great team up, losing our best manager in the process. But we were Champions 2 years after Heysel. We didn't build on that, other, lesser Clubs, inexcusably, caught us up because we sat on our bottoms and made some really bad decisions as a Club.You ask any Blue under the age of 30 and they will say "it was the RS that ruined our club". There was other mitigating circumstances but they've been lost amongst all the hatred.