Raino85
Player Valuation: £35m
You can tell who 'Unsie's' favourites are by if they are still playing for the u23s at the age of 22.
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You can tell who 'Unsie's' favourites are by if they are still playing for the u23s at the age of 22.
That is true.
I once knew somebody who spent time at Tranmere and he felt that he was unlucky because the manager promoted others but not him.
He felt the manager didn't like him, the truth is the manager probably thought he wouldn't make it.
I think we very rarely see players come back and prove the academy coaches wrong.
Some players that have left us have gone on to have good careers but at the moment I can't think of a single player that I would like to bring back.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell.
Ledson and Walsh, two 22 year olds who have consistently failed to make an impression at Championship level, but it's because of David Unsworth having favourites that they couldn't break into the Everton team at 19. It's an absolutely ludicrous suggestion, and yet it comes up time and again.
Stephenlloyd
Player Valuation: £40m
To be fair, Walsh finally got his chance at Bristol city, early last season and was very good, fans raving about him. Then he got injured and missed the whole 2nd half of last season.
Why he wasn’t given a chance this season, before getting loaned out, who knows.
But to think he didn’t play one game for us and Tom Davies has nearly played a 100. Is shocking imo.
Are you sure? According to transfermarkt he started 4 games all season, 3 in October (not consecutive) and 1 in April.
I'm not doubting that the lad is a talented footballer but ultimately he didn't make an impact at Birmingham on loan, or in 2 1/2 years at Bristol City. That doesn't mean he won't become a top player, he's obviously still young, but it surely suggests that there's something holding him back and it's not David Unsworth or just bad luck.
I've made my views on Davies clear plenty of times, but in fairness to the lad I'm pretty sure he'd be looking good in League one too.
Eggsyblueskin
Player Valuation: £40m
Well, yes and nothing more than baseless tittle tattle which as you note keeps resurfacing every now and then.
However I do note that Dowell who was championed more vigorously than Walsh (in my opinion) is still with us despite flaws that have been obvious throughout his career thus far.
It is in any case a fact of life that people in authority will have people they prefer to work with or whose interests they more readily advance.
Zatara
Player Valuation: £100m
25 starts in league one and 6 motm awards.
Seems like hes had injury issues and the fans want him in the team but the manager loaned him out....possibly i guess to have a run of games and build confidence.
Must be too good for league one so now has a platform to build on in the championship.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Managers don't always look at the game as we do. I mean we have no "skin in the game" so it's very easy to start stipulating that managers should have a long term view, and just give younger players they exposure they require to develop. I think (particularly) Wash has a high ceiling but would need a lot of time to get there. When it's your job though, it's you being mocked by the media, or shouted at by 40,000 people or all over the internet your main priority is-is this lad going to do me the job we need him to. I think its often as short termist as that.
You can probably look at Ferguson and to a degree Wenger who bucked that trend, but it was a different time and they earned that trust. I mean Ferguson is a genius. Wenger inherited a very solid back 4/goalkeeper and goalkeeper and could take chances ahead of it. Sort of like Martinez but at a much higher level.
Long story short though, Davies did a job for managers so stayed in. It's particularly why DCL has stayed for so long, he works hard and does what the managers want him to do. They like that.
Ledson's a bit of an odd one. Not sure what happened there really. Was in the reserves at 15. First team bench at 16. Did ok in the European game and then never saw again. I mean if it wasn't for his youth career Id have said it was just more bad judgement from Martinez, but he was seemingly well thought of by academy coaches.
There’s a lot of truth in that, but also worth noting that coaches had seen something in both Davies and DCL in the first place. Particularly Davies sometimes has his junior career overlooked I think, people talk about him as if he was a nobody who got a call up because he was the only fit midfielder at the club and somehow hung around. In reality he captained different England age groups, captained our youth sides (including ones with Walsh in I think, despite being a year younger) and was playing an age group from the age of 15/16. He’s not kicked on, but he was genuinely highly rated.
Ledsons just like hundreds of others before and after I think. Some - garbutt, Galloway, browning etc just looking at us over the last couple of years - actually got as far as the first team before eventually finding their level. His story isn’t so odd.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
It is my understanding that those two age groups (Ledson's and then Davies's) were the strongest we'd had in a few years, and really only the current under 16's are spoken about in the same way (no subsequent age group has been). This is particularly so with Davies's age and there have been a lot of lads who will make good careers out of the game to come through, obviously Davies, Connolly, Walsh, Willaims, Kenny, Dowell etc.
Everyone always said Davies was like a clone of Ledson (as Ledson was the year above and captain) but at first he struggled to get into the 18's team. However you do have to factor in the likes of Connolly and Walsh are 9 months older than Davies. Maybe it was always the plan he was the one star player? I'm not so sure, I think they were all good players at youth level, but Davies just stepped up better.
Ledson and Walsh both trained with the first team and weren't put in by consecutive managers. I think Davies has always seemed wholly unfazed by mens football. He also did the team a job. Certainly under Koeman early on he was probably our best midfielder. He got into the team, into the managers thoughts and hasn't left.
As we've, the other two lads are doing well at a lower level and may get there. They needed game time though that we just wouldn't be able to give them.
Best quote I heard from Wenger on the topic was:
"You pay for youth players with points."
Absolutely correct, one moment of indecision can cost the game, fortunately (for the better teams) they have players usually capable of recovering from little errors before the damage is done.
Regards to Walsh, I was fortunate enough to have a long chat with Martinez during his second season here. He said the problem was they didn't know where to play him. He was quite pessimistic about his chances tbh. (Which myself and those with me found surprising as he was absolutely the eye catcher around that time.)
Interesting relevant quote from an Athletic article talking about other stuff today:
And goes on to refer to former local youth talents Adam Pepper (28), Karl Clair (27) and Dale Jennings (27) playing against each other in Merseyside Sunday league football...
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Yes thats a really god insight on both points. You look at Davies and he has cost Everton points. The PL is really ruthless now and you get punished for mistakes. If you look at Bournemouth for example, they will often ply lovely stuff but throw it away at key moments. We were quite similar under Martinez.
What you probably saw with Arsenal was they had a fantastic backline and goalkeeper to begin introducing such players. So as you say they had the insurance in place. Once that went, Wenger really struggled to emulate his earlier days. With United, while the young players were introduced, I always remember Paul Scholes saying (when someone posed the Alan Hansen, win nothing with kids tagline to him) that actually was right. They won the league because they still had good senior pro's, Schmiechel, Cantona, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Keane etc. It was those players who really won them the league, and the first 2 mentioned were top class in that season.
It also comes to pass, that if you have a cycle where managers are increasingly on shorter and shorter time frames, they will look at a young player as an investment that even if it comes off, comes off for someone else. If you had a pot of money for example, would you invest it in a scheme that paid off handsomely in 5 years, if you knew you could only access the returns for the next 2? Or would you put it in one that gave you what you needed for 2 years?
On Walsh I can imagine Martinez saying that. He needed to keep growing and had he have waited until this season when he was maybe 22, perhaps he'd have got a look in? However it's a big ask for a player and I never begrudge any of them that say they want to go out and play regularly. For every Osman that breaks through at 22/23 there are 10 Garbutts who have just wasted their careers.
There is almost a contradiction in the way football works at youth academy level.
The top clubs can attract the best young talent or they can buy the best young academy talent. However, it is almost impossible then for young players to find a pathway through at these top clubs. The competition is too fierce and these clubs simply cannot afford to drop points in any game so they cannot take the risk with young players unless they are sure they won't cost them points.
Phil Foden at City is a good example. I think he would play regularly in most teams but is being introduced sparingly by City and he is a very talented boy.
At Everton we have been very good at bringing players through but that will probably change somewhat if we find ourselves in the top six or even top four in the next few years.
The top clubs can attract the best young talent or they can buy the best young academy talent. However, it is almost impossible then for young players to find a pathway through at these top clubs. The competition is too fierce and these clubs simply cannot afford to drop points in any game so they cannot take the risk with young players unless they are sure they won't cost them points.
Phil Foden at City is a good example. I think he would play regularly in most teams but is being introduced sparingly by City and he is a very talented boy.
At Everton we have been very good at bringing players through but that will probably change somewhat if we find ourselves in the top six or even top four in the next few years.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
This is the dilemma for young players. When you fall it's very hard to stop this. Most clubs below the championship tend to operate on 1-2 year deals. Look at most players at that level and it's up rooting your family every year or 2 to move to a new place. In some ways it's quite exciting but must be quite challenging, especially as most of these lads will not be on fortunes (maybe a grand a week basic with bonuses attached).
It sounds odd, but posy about 18 most players values in a lot of ways start to drop. The longer you hang around at a PL side not playing the less marketable you are. I'd always say, to every teenager now, don't listen to the guff of the club, consider have they got a plan to play you, and if they haven't go somewhere to a team that will give you that chance.
But yes, once you start falling it's hard to put the breaks on it. I see lots of lads who were very good for our under 18's (I always think of Michael Donuhue) he's 21 and played a handful of games on loan for FC United. Signed for them in January but doesn't look to have played much this season.
Every PL academy has maybe 10 or 15 lads it gives pro deals to each year. Thats a first 11 ever year, from every club. There are 72 other pro clubs in the system. So within about 3 years the PL clubs produce enough scholars to have filled every starting place in the football pyramid below the PL. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out there aren't enough places for them all,or frankly even for most of them who get pro terms at 16/17.