General Meeting

[BlueToff]

Who actually said we would be after young players for big fees but low wages?

Moshiri.

And tbf, it's exactly what we've done so far anyway.

Gomes and Zouma are obviously loans, but both still young - Gomes is only 25 and Zouma just 24.

Mina has only just turned 24. Richarlison 21. Digne 25. I can't imagine any of them are among our top 5 earners at the club. Perhaps even top 10, the rate we threw money around in the last few years.

I'd wager

Gylfi, Sandro (Christ), Schneiderlin, Walcott, Tosun, Bernard (probably because he's a free), Gomes (but loan), Keane, Baines, Gueye are all higher. Probably Coleman as well.

Can't imagine Richarlison is on more than 50k (not exactly pittance). Digne must be around 70/80, same for Mina.

 

[Neiler]

Moshiri.

And tbf, it's exactly what we've done so far anyway.

Gomes and Zouma are obviously loans, but both still young - Gomes is only 25 and Zouma just 24.

Mina has only just turned 24. Richarlison 21. Digne 25. I can't imagine any of them are among our top 5 earners at the club. Perhaps even top 10, the rate we threw money around in the last few years.

I'd wager

Gylfi, Sandro (Christ), Schneiderlin, Walcott, Tosun, Bernard (probably because he's a free), Gomes (but loan), Keane, Baines, Gueye are all higher. Probably Coleman as well.

Can't imagine Richarlison is on more than 50k (not exactly pittance). Digne must be around 70/80, same for Mina.

One thing that stands out to me from the GM, that hasnt really been picked up on is the points that was made on wages. Ive been banging on a long time here about deals and transfer fees only being a part of the true cost to a club, its wages that really are the true cost of a transfer.

I found it very telling that Moshiri underlined this and how it applies to Everton. essentially we signed players of potential and gave them low "comparative wages" wages and nurtured them and turned them into established players, Stones, Barkley, Lukaku etc. Now two of those deals out were for top fees in. But it was the cost of the wages that killed us. we essentially had players of the caliber of Stones and Lukaku on the same for what we are paying a week for Sandro in wages.

What we tried to do was sign established players at the appex of their careers in their late 20s to replace them and give them huge contracts. That ate away completely at our finance and capital, with poor resale value and flexibility to get rid of the those players as their engines ran out.

So in Essene from a wages and potential point of view, i see us signing only players with potential to get better from this point on, rather then established players. More Richarlisons and less Sigurrdsons, Walcotts etc. There is a primary and secondary loss to types of players from a business perspective.

Essentially all of our transfer from this point have to have a specific profile of an in built value, both in fee asset investment and headroom to rise, in wages, value of both and potential of the investment to rise pre the apex of their careers.

 

[Jebus_lives]

One thing that stands out to me from the GM, that hasnt really been picked up on is the points that was made on wages. Ive been banging on a long time here about deals and transfer fees only being a part of the true cost to a club, its wages that really are the true cost of a transfer.

I found it very telling that Moshiri underlined this and how it applies to Everton. essentially we signed players of potential and gave them low "comparative wages" wages and nurtured them and turned them into established players, Stones, Barkley, Lukaku etc. Now two of those deals out were for top fees in. But it was the cost of the wages that killed us. we essentially had players of the caliber of Stones and Lukaku on the same for what we are paying a week for Sandro in wages.

What we tried to do was sign established players at the appex of their careers in their late 20s to replace them and give them huge contracts. That ate away completely at our finance and capital, with poor resale value and flexibility to get rid of the those players as their engines ran out.

So in Essene from a wages and potential point of view, i see us signing only players with potential to get better from this point on, rather then established players. More Richarlisons and less Sigurrdsons, Walcotts etc. There is a primary and secondary loss to types of players from a business perspective.

Essentially all of our transfer from this point have to have a specific profile of an in built value, both in fee asset investment and headroom to rise, in wages, value of both and potential of the investment to rise pre the apex of their careers.

This is exactly where we should, in my opinion, be heading. We can't compete with stupid money signings and teams with much greater resource and status than us, but we can offer experience and opportunity to younger players who are ready to step up and impress. Those who are 18-22 who we think will develop into quality first team players.

It is vitally important that we also get a leader on the pitch alongside them - sadly lacking in this area for a long time.

 

[BlueToff]

This is exactly where we should, in my opinion, be heading. We can't compete with stupid money signings and teams with much greater resource and status than us, but we can offer experience and opportunity to younger players who are ready to step up and impress. Those who are 18-22 who we think will develop into quality first team players.

It is vitally important that we also get a leader on the pitch alongside them - sadly lacking in this area for a long time.

and @Neiler

Totally agree.

And ultimately this is why Moshiri is right when he says we have to be patient, as well as ambitious.

If we're going to build something sustainable, and go down the route of younger players (not necessarily kids, but that 21-25 bracket) then naturally they are not going to be the all-round package (because if they were, they would not be coming to Everton). That's not to say we can't succeed, but look how long it took Spurs - and as good as Poch is, they had the fortune of a superstar coming through their academy.

 

[Jebus_lives]

and @Neiler

Totally agree.

And ultimately this is why Moshiri is right when he says we have to be patient, as well as ambitious.

If we're going to build something sustainable, and go down the route of younger players (not necessarily kids, but that 21-25 bracket) then naturally they are not going to be the all-round package (because if they were, they would not be coming to Everton). That's not to say we can't succeed, but look how long it took Spurs - and as good as Poch is, they had the fortune of a superstar coming through their academy.

It has to be steady progress over 10 years. The first 2-3 should be focused on removing dead wood from the team combined with steady progress on it. Anywhere from 7-10 in the table will be acceptable this season (ideally 7th cements us as the 'best of the rest' given the 8th place last year), but then we need to establish ourselves as a team who are a consistent feature in European football - regardless of if it is Europa League.

 

[Tipp blue]

I wonder if Moshiri regrets sacking Martinez.

World Cup semi-finalist. I think it's hard to deny we would be much further on with our progression had he stayed. The foundation was there.

Come on lad Martinez was hopeless in the transfer market, with Belgium he happens at this time to have a golden generation at Everton he signed the likes od Kone, Cleverl, Alcarez and Mcgeady he only had 2 hits in my opinion Barry and Lukaku. Any manager who knows anything about football could get that Belgium team preforming, infact I could probably do well with those players.

 

[hktoffee]

I wonder if Moshiri regrets sacking Martinez.

World Cup semi-finalist. I think it's hard to deny we would be much further on with our progression had he stayed. The foundation was there.

Is this meant to be a joke?

Martínez was crap and get found out. He won 22 games in 75 games we were on free-fall that’s why he was sacked. Had he stayed we would be fighting relegation in his fourth season.

 

[catcherintherye]

Who actually said we would be after young players for big fees but low wages?

I think it was Moshiri mate

 

[hktoffee]

You may remember that you and I differed somewhat in our opinions of Martinez...

I think you have a point though. While I haven't revised my opinion of Martinez himself, it's hard to disagree with the fact that he is much more the type of manager that fits with what we're apparently trying to do, and that the appointment of Koeman/Allardyce was just a complete waste of 2 years (and a frightening amount of money). I still think Martinez would have needed to be moved on, but at least we'd have had a consistent model, rather than the complete about turns we've seen over recent years.

Martínez won’t get 7th/8th had he stayed he was having a winning ratio like 29.33% in his second and third season (league). There is more chance to relegate this football club.

 

[catcherintherye]

Care to share all these briefings with us?
I'm pretty sure that nobody connected to Everton or Moshiri uttered the words that you have disingeneously put into quotation marks.

No fair point Kev. I was obviously not privy to such briefings but It's how it came across to me.

The quote marks was not intended to be used as an exact phrase, but that annoying thing where people do it with their fingers as if to illustrate a point. That doesn't come across in text so shouldn't have been employed as a device by me.
What I meant, was that there were numerous articles, early into Moshiri's reign that spoke of us being able to spend substantial sums of money to radically move up the league. There was certainly some alluding to it being akin to Manchester City in some articles. Of course it could be coincidence that they all appeared at a similar time, but for me it looked like there was some coordination going on.

If there had not have been a briefing and the press had misrepresented what the project was for Moshiri, surely all the more reason to have the board correct them and tell the fans what they were intending on doing? That's the rub of this though, and in my view the core mistake of Moshiri when he first arrived, he felt an ultimately quite secretive board that was unwilling to have enough dialogue with fans would be able to communicate his vision effectively. I think it's an unnecessary amount of undue pressure on Moshiri.

 

[Nymzee]

No fair point Kev. I was obviously not privy to such briefings but It's how it came across to me.

The quote marks was not intended to be used as an exact phrase, but that annoying thing where people do it with their fingers as if to illustrate a point. That doesn't come across in text so shouldn't have been employed as a device by me.
What I meant, was that there were numerous articles, early into Moshiri's reign that spoke of us being able to spend substantial sums of money to radically move up the league. There was certainly some alluding to it being akin to Manchester City in some articles. Of course it could be coincidence that they all appeared at a similar time, but for me it looked like there was some coordination going on.

If there had not have been a briefing and the press had misrepresented what the project was for Moshiri, surely all the more reason to have the board correct them and tell the fans what they were intending on doing? That's the rub of this though, and in my view the core mistake of Moshiri when he first arrived, he felt an ultimately quite secretive board that was unwilling to have enough dialogue with fans would be able to communicate his vision effectively. I think it's an unnecessary amount of undue pressure on Moshiri.

According to Vlasic we’re apparently trying to do a Spurs.

 

[hktoffee]

Everton manager Roberto Martinez has accepted that the club are in a relegation battle. Martinez's side are six points above the relegation zone after winning one of their last 12 Premier League games. Everton have 28 points from 28 games, their lowest total at this stage of a season in the Premier League era.

"Any team that hasn't got 40 points in the final third of the season is in a relegation fight. The big advantage I have is that I've been through that every season. Yes, yes, but I've been down with 36 points and it's very tough to get 36 points in this league," Martinez said.

Hardly inspiring stuff.

He also added that he wouldn’t change.

Maybe he is suited to international football or cup runs. No one was asking if Southgate was available and he got to the semis.

Exactly. Southgate had a weaker squad and in the semi too. He’s also a nominee of FIFA best coach of the year like Martínez. It doesn’t mean one can be a good club manager.

 

[catcherintherye]

You may remember that you and I differed somewhat in our opinions of Martinez...

I think you have a point though. While I haven't revised my opinion of Martinez himself, it's hard to disagree with the fact that he is much more the type of manager that fits with what we're apparently trying to do, and that the appointment of Koeman/Allardyce was just a complete waste of 2 years (and a frightening amount of money). I still think Martinez would have needed to be moved on, but at least we'd have had a consistent model, rather than the complete about turns we've seen over recent years.

The question from @mkrudden is a very good one and a worthwhile one. I think he would be a tad stupid not to at least have some regrets about the Martinez sacking. I would say it saw a radical overhaul in terms of the fans perceptions to managers. We had previously been a club who hadn't sacked a manager in the best part of 15 years (and just sacked 1 in the previous 18 years). Attitudes are conditioned to a lesser or greater degree by behaviour. We had been conditioned to give managers and projects time.

We are now onto 4 managers in less than 3 years under Moshiri, and in truth are very little further along the journey than when he first came, apart from him investing large sums of money to initially clear the balance sheet and then to spend money on transfers.

That being said I think the situation became quite untenable for Martinez quite quickly. The level of anger towards the board at him not being sacked after the Liverpool game for example was enormous. I am not sure he could have kept going for much longer and it's clear the dressing room was lost as were people above him.

Moshiri came in though, after a great win against Chelsea in the FA CUP quarter final. He could have decided to back Martinez at that point. Had he have done, and allowed him to spend some of the funds available I do think we'd have been in a better situation than we are now. Alternatively he could have moved him on earlier, perhaps given Unsworth a run at the job and kept him in charge.

For me the big mistake was the identification and subsequent chase of Koeman.

 

[catcherintherye]

According to Vlasic we’re apparently trying to do a Spurs.

Well yes and that's far more the message now. My point is, had that have been made very clear early into his regime, perhaps the expectations could have been managed more easily.

We have also spent 18 months (prior to this summer) behaving nothing like how Spurs do. So to convince fans thats the approach it will need a longer period of time showing what the plan is in actions not words for it to sink in.

I think the Spurs plan is the right plan too. In fairness much of the business in the summer fitted into that criteria but it's about being consistent. We should really be getting Vlasic back to the club this summer and only letting him go if a really good offer comes in.

 

[hktoffee]

The question from @mkrudden is a very good one and a worthwhile one. I think he would be a tad stupid not to at least have some regrets about the Martinez sacking. I would say it saw a radical overhaul in terms of the fans perceptions to managers. We had previously been a club who hadn't sacked a manager in the best part of 15 years (and just sacked 1 in the previous 18 years). Attitudes are conditioned to a lesser or greater degree by behaviour. We had been conditioned to give managers and projects time.

We are now onto 4 managers in less than 3 years under Moshiri, and in truth are very little further along the journey than when he first came, apart from him investing large sums of money to initially clear the balance sheet and then to spend money on transfers.

That being said I think the situation became quite untenable for Martinez quite quickly. The level of anger towards the board at him not being sacked after the Liverpool game for example was enormous. I am not sure he could have kept going for much longer and it's clear the dressing room was lost as were people above him.

Moshiri came in though, after a great win against Chelsea in the FA CUP quarter final. He could have decided to back Martinez at that point. Had he have done, and allowed him to spend some of the funds available I do think we'd have been in a better situation than we are now. Alternatively he could have moved him on earlier, perhaps given Unsworth a run at the job and kept him in charge.

For me the big mistake was the identification and subsequent chase of Koeman.

How? Given the dreadful winning rate during his 2nd and 3rd season. Had he stayed on there was more chance he would relegate this club. And it seemed he had lost the dressing room when he was sacked. There was no way back.

And Walsh must share the same responsibility.