2017/18 Gylfi Sigurdsson

[Papa Shango]

Disagree there CCC, Final third passes and chances created are pretty good barometer of a players creativity higher the number the better they are. And I can remember atleast two one on ones that DCL absoutely fluffed that my dead gran would of buried

I don't agree at all and I can even tell you why via the medium of terrible paint drawings.

Created Chance one. The player on the left is totally unmarked with a clear chance at goal. The player on the right is marked by two players and has no clear route to goal. The midfielder passes to the player on the right who takes a shot that gets blocked. It is a chance created. It is also a stupid pass and the wrong option.

Chance 2. Our left back (lets call him Muco Cartina...) sees our right winger in acres of space. He looks up and tries a cross field ball. Because he is fairly rubbish he spoons his cross field pass straight into the path of our striker who runs onto the ball and scores. It is a chance created (and also an assist, but that's another stat argument for another time..) but it was not meant to be a great defence splitting pass. It was an error that we luckily capitalized on.

Chance 3. Our right back gets the ball looking to start an attack, he passes it to our centre mid who is an idiot and takes an ambitious shot that ends up in Stanley Park. It is a chance created even though its a shot that nobody in their right mind should be taking.

Stats don't work in football! Too many variables that can result in skewed statistics.

 

[Toffee-nerd]

I don't agree at all and I can even tell you why via the medium of terrible paint drawings.

Created Chance one. The player on the left is totally unmarked with a clear chance at goal. The player on the right is marked by two players and has no clear route to goal. The midfielder passes to the player on the right who takes a shot that gets blocked. It is a chance created. It is also a stupid pass and the wrong option.

Chance 2. Our left back (lets call him Muco Cartina...) sees our right winger in acres of space. He looks up and tries a cross field ball. Because he is fairly rubbish he spoons his cross field pass straight into the path of our striker who runs onto the ball and scores. It is a chance created (and also an assist, but that's another stat argument for another time..) but it was not meant to be a great defence splitting pass. It was an error that we luckily capitalized on.

Chance 3. Our right back gets the ball looking to start an attack, he passes it to our centre mid who is an idiot and takes an ambitious shot that ends up in Stanley Park. It is a chance created even though its a shot that nobody in their right mind should be taking.

Stats don't work in football! Too many variables that can result in skewed statistics.

lollollol that's beautiful.

 

[Papa Shango]

I happen to work with Opta day-in-day-out - in the same office, three desks over - it very much isn't a nothing stat.

I have worked with loads of people who I think are doing pointless nonsense work. Just because they do it doesn't mean its right.

They will of course claim its a useful stat because its what keeps them in business. It's a massive con!

 

[originalgreaserbob]

I don't agree at all and I can even tell you why via the medium of terrible paint drawings.

Created Chance one. The player on the left is totally unmarked with a clear chance at goal. The player on the right is marked by two players and has no clear route to goal. The midfielder passes to the player on the right who takes a shot that gets blocked. It is a chance created. It is also a stupid pass and the wrong option.

Chance 2. Our left back (lets call him Muco Cartina...) sees our right winger in acres of space. He looks up and tries a cross field ball. Because he is fairly rubbish he spoons his cross field pass straight into the path of our striker who runs onto the ball and scores. It is a chance created (and also an assist, but that's another stat argument for another time..) but it was not meant to be a great defence splitting pass. It was an error that we luckily capitalized on.

Chance 3. Our right back gets the ball looking to start an attack, he passes it to our centre mid who is an idiot and takes an ambitious shot that ends up in Stanley Park. It is a chance created even though its a shot that nobody in their right mind should be taking.

Stats don't work in football! Too many variables that can result in skewed statistics.

You know what else is a stupid stat? Goals. Because sometimes they get deflected and they go in when really they would have gotten saved. Also sometimes the player mishits it and it goes in just because of luck. And then sometimes people score when they were just trying to cross. Therefore goals are a worthless stat and it's all a big con.

Sorry I didn't do any diagrams.

 

[sageyefc]

Disagree there CCC, Final third passes and chances created are pretty good barometer of a players creativity higher the number the better they are. And I can remember atleast two one on ones that DCL absoutely fluffed that my dead gran would of buried

True, and siggy has pretty average numbers in both compared to other players in the league over the past few seasons

 

[Lanolin]

Pre season isn't just playing games.

Exactly! That's my point.

When people say 'he missed pre-season' they mean that the player missed the intensive fitness training that goes on during that time. That's why it's sometimes a big deal, because the player never really gets fully fit during the season after missing that. He didn't though. He had a full, uninterrupted, pre-season training programme with Swansea and so did not miss out at all. He simply didn't play much because he chose not to.

 

[Papa Shango]

You know what else is a stupid stat? Goals. Because sometimes they get deflected and they go in when really they would have gotten saved. Also sometimes the player mishits it and it goes in just because of luck. And then sometimes people score when they were just trying to cross. Therefore goals are a worthless stat and it's all a big con.

Sorry I didn't do any diagrams.

Well you obviously don't have my artistic flair...

You are proving my point there though. It doesn't matter how the goal is scored as they all end up with the same end result, one goal.

Goal scoring stats are pretty useless though. Look at the instances of players with great goal scoring records moving club and then barely getting any goals. You can look at how many goals a player has scored, how they scored them etc but you also need to take into account the variables. level of opponent, the other members of the players team, even daft things like the weather or the players health etc. Then you have to take into account all this for every single player on the pitch. Way too many variables for stats to be useful in football to the level that people think they are.

Eyes are the best thing to judge a footballer on. Your eyes, not theirs.... that would be weird.

 

[Lanolin]

He had five weeks off in between playing for Iceland last summer and then playing for Swansea.

He returned to pre-season with an injury I think, and then the whole transfer situation transpired and he played just 45 minutes of their game against Barnet.

He didn't travel to America with the rest of their squad. He trained on his own at the training ground, but it will have been nowhere near as intense as an actual pre-season. He and us both expected that the move would get sooner than it did I assume.

Sigurdsson never got going in those first 10 games. He was poor. I think part of that is down to him, part down to a lack of a proper pre-season, part down to the management/tactics.

From December to March he was very consistent, but I agree not spectacular. He had some great moments, but they were just flashes. Some games off the top of my head where I do remember him being very good are West Ham at home, Huddersfield home, Newcastle away, Burnley away. Those were games when - regardless of whether he scored/assisted - he performed very well overall and that's the levels I'd expect from him.

It's not enough, I agree. He needs to step it up next season. But there's far bigger concerns in our squad and the lad seems to get a lot of stick from a certain section of the support on here that have refused to budge since he signed last summer. And given the crap our squad is littered with, I think some others would come under the same levels of criticism more often?

Totally agree with your comments on Sigurdsson mate, but I actually take the opposite view regarding your last paragraph.

If you read the comments from many on here, we can't judge Sigurdsson, Klaassen, Keane or Sandro yet because the team was rubbish last year. The fact they were the team is somehow not their fault. We also can't criticise DCL, Kenny, Holgate or Davies because they're young. Or Bolasie because he was coming back from injury. So somehow we've ended up in a situation where excuses are readily put forward for half the squad, and yet the players we are allowed to blame are the likes of Jagielka and Baines (two of our best players of the modern era), Rooney (our top scorer) and Martina (a free transfer who was played almost exclusively out of position). It's bizarre.

 

[BlueToff]

Exactly! That's my point.

When people say 'he missed pre-season' they mean that the player missed the intensive fitness training that goes on during that time. That's why it's sometimes a big deal, because the player never really gets fully fit during the season after missing that. He didn't though. He had a full, uninterrupted, pre-season training programme with Swansea and so did not miss out at all. He simply didn't play much because he chose not to.

No, he did miss the intense pre-season training though mate.

He didn't go to America and only joined in with the squad when they got back.

I also remember some articles (I will try and find them) from around July/early August stating that Gylfi was still not taking part in full intense training as Swansea (and the player) didn't want to risk an injury.

So he pretty much had half a pre-season. He wasn't involved in any of the intense stuff and didn't have the match sharpness.

Most players don't have the full match sharpness heading into the season as it is. They take 4-5 games to get fully into it (so September).

So, throw in that Gylfi didn't play any pre-season matches and won't have taken part in half of the training that the Swansea squad did, obviously he was going to take longer into the season to get full sharp.

Now, the fact that it took even longer than say, the end of September, for it all to come together, and instead took until November - is down to Gylfi's form itself, plus the lack of direction, system or any clue how to play him (and most of the others) - basically, poor management and poor performances.

 

[Steve0]

Exactly! That's my point.

When people say 'he missed pre-season' they mean that the player missed the intensive fitness training that goes on during that time. That's why it's sometimes a big deal, because the player never really gets fully fit during the season after missing that. He didn't though. He had a full, uninterrupted, pre-season training programme with Swansea and so did not miss out at all. He simply didn't play much because he chose not to.

Well I was meaning more getting used to the new players in training (not just the games) but his pre season was on hold. It shouldn't have affected him that much but it must have had some impact.

 

[RobC]

Big fish in a little pond at Swansea, failed at Spurs, goes back to Swansea and then we throw £45M at Swansea for him. He is not a bad player but we were idiotic to pay the fee we did and presumably idiotic wages to match. He will be here next season that's for sure, I suspect most of the crap we would like to bin will be as well.

We had a millionaire owner (BK) when billionaires were needed
We now have a billionaire owner when multi- billionaires are needed

I think with no proof whatsoever that Moshiri is getting cold feet about the level of investment HE needs to make if we are to progress.

 

[Lanolin]

No, he did miss the intense pre-season training though mate.

He didn't go to America and only joined in with the squad when they got back.

I also remember some articles (I will try and find them) from around July/early August stating that Gylfi was still not taking part in full intense training as Swansea (and the player) didn't want to risk an injury.

So he pretty much had half a pre-season. He wasn't involved in any of the intense stuff and didn't have the match sharpness.

Most players don't have the full match sharpness heading into the season as it is. They take 4-5 games to get fully into it (so September).

So, throw in that Gylfi didn't play any pre-season matches and won't have taken part in half of the training that the Swansea squad did, obviously he was going to take longer into the season to get full sharp.

Now, the fact that it took even longer than say, the end of September, for it all to come together, and instead took until November - is down to Gylfi's form itself, plus the lack of direction, system or any clue how to play him (and most of the others) - basically, poor management and poor performances.

Well I was meaning more getting used to the new players in training (not just the games) but his pre season was on hold. It shouldn't have affected him that much but it must have had some impact.

Swansea were in America for 10 days. He was involved in the normal pre-season set up, including playing a game, up until 13 July. On 25 July he was back training as normal. There are numerous reports of this. He had a proper pre-season, and as has previously been stated, the fact it wasn't entirely conventional was a situation completely of his own making. If he wasn't fit enough it's his fault because he should have been professional enough to continue training as normal until his move was confirmed.

I agree that it's not ideal to miss out on the 'bonding' side of pre-season but it's hardly uncommon these days. Late transfers are pretty much the norm now, especially for us.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

Well you obviously don't have my artistic flair...

You are proving my point there though. It doesn't matter how the goal is scored as they all end up with the same end result, one goal.

Goal scoring stats are pretty useless though. Look at the instances of players with great goal scoring records moving club and then barely getting any goals. You can look at how many goals a player has scored, how they scored them etc but you also need to take into account the variables. level of opponent, the other members of the players team, even daft things like the weather or the players health etc. Then you have to take into account all this for every single player on the pitch. Way too many variables for stats to be useful in football to the level that people think they are.

Eyes are the best thing to judge a footballer on. Your eyes, not theirs.... that would be weird.

What do your eyes tell you about a player like Gabriel Agbonlahor? Because to most people, the eyeball test says he should be playing for Formby Dons. Yet he was a productive premiership striker for a number of years [obv not a great one or anything like that, but he earned his jersey week in week out]. The statistics confound the eyes.

Ask any arlarse on here who is the most elegant midfielder they ever saw in the RBJ - plenty of candidates but Martin Dobson is for sure top five. Strode round Goodison Park like Caesar inspecting his regiments (according to my Dad), yet won nothing AFAIK.

 

[banno]

Is this a thread to try and convince people that siggy is useless. What nonsense........very good player indeed not worth £45m and it's the price tag that is blinding people on his obvious talent.

 

[Lanolin]

What do your eyes tell you about a player like Gabriel Agbonlahor? Because to most people, the eyeball test says he should be playing for Formby Dons. Yet he was a productive premiership striker for a number of years [obv not a great one or anything like that, but he earned his jersey week in week out]. The statistics confound the eyes.

Ask any arlarse on here who is the most elegant midfielder they ever saw in the RBJ - plenty of candidates but Martin Dobson is for sure top five. Strode round Goodison Park like Caesar inspecting his regiments (according to my Dad), yet won nothing AFAIK.

Agbonlahor is surely the perfect example of what @Papa Shango is saying?! Statistically he's awful (goalscoring record of less than 1 in 4 over his career) but he had a 'successful' career because the stats don't tell the whole story. He was effective for Villa by using his pace and strength to stretch teams, something that the eye test would confirm.