Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[dholliday]

I'm travelling currently so don't have the figures to hand but will post them later.

Poverty increased by more than 60% under Margaret Thatcher. The gini score increased by more than 50% in the same time. (Gini score is the measure of income inequality).

So without doubt the poor where better off pre Thatcher than post Thatcher.

This study is interesting:

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/poverty-and-wealth-across-britain-1968-2005

Table 1: Index of Dissimilarity, showing that both poor and wealthy households have become increasingly segregated over the past 40 years.

___________________1970_____1980_____1990_______2000
Core Poor____________12.3%_____15.6%_____15.3%_____14.1%
Breadline Poor_________14.7%_____16.7%_____17.1%_____18.3%
Non-poor, non-wealthy___n/a______15.4%_____16.7%_____19.8%
Asset Wealthy__________n/a_____ 34.9%_____34.5%_____40.1%
Exclusive Wealthy_______n/a______43.6%_____60.6%_____59.7%


The closest to the 1978/1996 question would be comparing 1980/2000. There's less core poor dissimilarity (under poverty line) after 17 years of a Tory goverment, but there's more "breadline poor" (similar differential percentage). The middle class have grown.

And the rich deffo got richer! That 17% increase between 1980 and 1990 of the filthy rich is astonishing.


The conclusion after looking at that report in more detail is that the classic clichés are broadly true:

- the rich get richer
- the gap between poor and rich is getting more pronounced.


But the poor getting poorer? Yes and no. How much influence do the Tories have in this? Well some, but it's hardly a defining ideology for them to keep the poor in their place.


Saying that, it's possible I've read the table wrong so if you've got another interpration I'd be glad to hear it.

 

[roydo]

Boil that down, and folk who own a house have got richer I guess.

 

[dholliday]

I'm travelling currently so don't have the figures to hand but will post them later.

Poverty increased by more than 60% under Margaret Thatcher. The gini score increased by more than 50% in the same time. (Gini score is the measure of income inequality).

So without doubt the poor where better off pre Thatcher than post Thatcher.

Further to the JRF report...

This is very anecdotal of course, but it does come from a Labour-supporting paper:

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ty-line-slum-britain-in-the-1960s-in-pictures

Anecdotally, their equivalent generation today are probably living a little more comfortably.


On the other hand, these two graphs do appear to support the idea that poverty levels increase under Tories and decrease under Labour:

Then we've got this analysis from the Institute of Economic Affairs (written by a Poverty Research Fellow):

https://iea.org.uk/blog/thatcherism-and-poverty-did-the-poor-get-poorer

which has the following conclusion:

So yes, there were things that could have been handled differently. When it comes to poverty, the 1980s were not an especially glorious decade. But poverty did not jolt up during this period. The received wisdom is the product of a statistical artefact.

So I guess this particular debate can feel a little muddy at the best of times, even before we take into account global market forces which are beyond the influence of a mere UK government.

 

[dholliday]

Boil that down, and folk who own a house have got richer I guess.

That too, and many of those older folk will have not been well-off to start with. My Nana & Granddad for example (the Hull side) bought their home for a 4-figure number back in lordyknowswhen (the 50's i think). Now it's worth at least a hundredfold.

 

[roydo]

That too, and many of those older folk will have not been well-off to start with. My Nana & Granddad for example (the Hull side) bought their home for a 4-figure number back in lordyknowswhen (the 50's i think). Now it's worth at least a hundredfold.

Quite. Their generation also had access to pensions back then that most folk outside of the Civil Service and a few mega corps can only dream of these days.

The whole Baby Boomer demographic, and the impact it/they have had on the the Western world is something I have banged on about for years. It is a total one off event, that has skewed "wealth" v "poverty" measures for decades.

Parties of all hues have chased their vote, by encouraging frankly ridiculous house price rises, pandering to their pensions, (triple lock, free public transport, etc). Not saying they should be ignored or anything, but their influence on these surveys and stuff is, like I said, a total one off. All be it a 60 to 80 years one.

To illustrate the point their impact has had, when they all got to 13-19, mid 50s to mid 60s, the phrase "Teenagers" was coined. What were 15 year olds called in 1947?

Now, they pack out cruise ships. How many 70 year olds took affordable cruises in the 1930s?

Aint a bad thing, but it is a statistical anomaly, in the context of population mixes.

 

[peteblue]

I'm travelling currently so don't have the figures to hand but will post them later.

Poverty increased by more than 60% under Margaret Thatcher. The gini score increased by more than 50% in the same time. (Gini score is the measure of income inequality).

So without doubt the poor where better off pre Thatcher than post Thatcher.

Give us a break Esk, Maggie Thatcher rescued this country from the far left and changed it from the 'sick man of Europe' into a growing economy. Not one Labour leader ever since has done anything that even came close. Every time we have had a Labour Government we have ended up in the financial mire and every time it's taken a Conservative Government to get us out of it. Your financial forecasts and observations are as accurate as your other forecasts, I'm sorry to say.....

 

[neil999]

Give us a break Esk, Maggie Thatcher rescued this country from the far left and changed it from the 'sick man of Europe' into a growing economy. Not one Labour leader ever since has done anything that even came close. Every time we have had a Labour Government we have ended up in the financial mire and every time it's taken a Conservative Government to get us out of it. Your financial forecasts and observations are as accurate as your other forecasts, I'm sorry to say.....

I'd be fascinated to see how things would turned out if different govts had been elected at key times, say labour 83..tory 1997..etc

 

[peteblue]

I'd be fascinated to see how things would turned out if different govts had been elected at key times, say labour 83..tory 1997..etc

We'd have been in the crap for longer, and not sorted it out until 1999...........

 

[Toffeelover]

Think this joke (such as it was) is past its sell by date mate. No more please.

Cheers TheEsk, thanks for the ban, for which there was a heck of a problem to clear.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Pokes nose in, sees rampant gibberish, ucksoff quickly.....

 

[peteblue]

That was from a different thread.......

 

[Woolly Blue]

That was from a different thread.......

It was satire you daft git !

 

[The Esk]

Cheers Paul, thanks for the ban, for which there was a heck of a problem to clear.

Not sure what you mean by this. I passed comment in the thread and did not infract you.

 

[roydo]

Not sure what you mean by this. I passed comment in the thread and did not infract you.

Nor me.

 

[peteblue]

It was satire you daft git !

I'm pleased to see that satire is now allowed again........ Hold on, did you call me a daft git........outside lad......