Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[Toffeelover]

The far left have achieved a majority in Benn's constituency as a result of which Benn now faces deselection for the next Ge. Other campaigns by the far left to grab other seats have not been successful ATM.

 

[JonS]

The far left have achieved a majority in Benn's constituency as a result of which Benn now faces deselection for the next Ge. Other campaigns by the far left to grab other seats have not been successful ATM.

Since he voted and campaigned for us to bomb thousands of innocent people in Syria I won't be sorry if he is deselected . I realise he meant well, but you have to get those things right (and he's got a great example in Corbyn to look for leadership in moral issues such as that). We can have political differences but when it comes to human lives and making yet another mess in the Middle East strong morals are IMO essential

 

[tsubaki]

The far left have achieved a majority in Benn's constituency as a result of which Benn now faces deselection for the next Ge. Other campaigns by the far left to grab other seats have not been successful ATM.

It isn't unexpected - but it is the cost of doing what he did, which was both wrong and also something done in favour of people who are less brave, less competent and less honourable than he is. If he is deselected they will no doubt bitch and moan, and then ignore him if they get back into power.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

This wouldn't be my choice but if they do it by the right procedure then so be it.

 

[Tubey]

The far left have achieved a majority in Benn's constituency as a result of which Benn now faces deselection for the next Ge. Other campaigns by the far left to grab other seats have not been successful ATM.

Yes but the Trot invasion isn't real apparently.

A joke. You can tell they're akin to the Soviets - dissenting voices eliminated, despite Corbyn himself being tolerated on the back benches for decades despite being a constant nuisance.

 

[Toffeelover]

Since he voted and campaigned for us to bomb thousands of innocent people in Syria I won't be sorry if he is deselected . I realise he meant well, but you have to get those things right (and he's got a great example in Corbyn to look for leadership in moral issues such as that). We can have political differences but when it comes to human lives and making yet another mess in the Middle East strong morals are IMO essential

Hi Mate, I follow what you are saying but there are murderous thugs operating in the Mid East. Do we let them continue and turn a blind eye?

 

[tsubaki]

Hi Mate, I follow what you are saying but there are murderous thugs operating in the Mid East. Do we let them continue and turn a blind eye?

We let them continue and turn a blind eye when the Saudis blow up a funeral "accidentally"* (though Benn to his credit did vote for an investigation into that, though the vote was defeated by Tories and the Labour cretinry), or when the Israelis fire several thousand tonnes of artillery shells into an heavily populated residential area to prevent one of theirs being captured alive, or when one of our rebel groups blows up a school / hospital / mosque etc. The IS vote was doubly stupid because, even before it came up, Coalition aircraft didn't have enough targets as it was and there was no significant difference that the RAF could add.

* in the sense that their actual target wasn't there

 

[Toffeelover]

We let them continue and turn a blind eye when the Saudis blow up a funeral "accidentally"* (though Benn to his credit did vote for an investigation into that, though the vote was defeated by Tories and the Labour cretinry), or when the Israelis fire several thousand tonnes of artillery shells into an heavily populated residential area to prevent one of theirs being captured alive, or when one of our rebel groups blows up a school / hospital / mosque etc. The IS vote was doubly stupid because, even before it came up, Coalition aircraft didn't have enough targets as it was and there was no significant difference that the RAF could add.

* in the sense that their actual target wasn't there

You are embroiling other issues that are not to do with ISIL in Syria. Presumably you approve of the destruction of Alleppo committed by the Soviets and Syrians but where is Corbyn's condemnation of that or the aid convoy? You condemn Israel and rightly so as dopes Corbyn but not Hamas or Hesbollah. The real buggar in all this is flaming Blair. BTW I think the Yemen Gov't asked the Saudis for help against faction tryinmg to split the country.

All very well sitting on a fence but where does that get one.

 

[JonS]

It isn't a straightforward choice I agree. The trouble is every time we or the US intervene in the middle east (or anywhere probably) we make things worse. For that reason I'd rather keep out of there.

It also becomes more complex when you look at how much we sell arms to Saudi Arabia and other dodgy countries.

I accept Hillary Benn was sincere in his beliefs but I dont believe it was the way to go and much prefer his late fathers attitude to wars - he would never have wanted to get involved.

 

[Toffeelover]

It isn't a straightforward choice I agree. The trouble is every time we or the US intervene in the middle east (or anywhere probably) we make things worse. For that reason I'd rather keep out of there.

It also becomes more complex when you look at how much we sell arms to Saudi Arabia and other dodgy countries.

I accept Hillary Benn was sincere in his beliefs but I dont believe it was the way to go and much prefer his late fathers attitude to wars - he would never have wanted to get involved.

Yes, we have that flipping Blair to blame for this lot and now he is trying to make a political come back.

 

[JonS]

Nixon is worth re-visiting, in light of recent events. He has since been 'normalized' to some extent by having been a President, but before winning, he was considered an odious red-baiting opportunist hick in establishment circles. Dean Acheson famously refused to be in the same room with him: "I will not break bread with that man." And some of the stunts he pulled - the 'Checkers' speech etc. - were legitimately tacky and crude. If something short of the indignation that Trump inspires, Nixon was at least equivalent to a Ted Cruz.

But Nixon was a very thoughtful statesman, and a true innovator in foreign policy, far more so than Kissinger, who, we now know, dismissed most of Nixon's ideas before hastening to take credit for them after they succeeded. It's to Nixon's innovations and courage that Kissinger owes his current status as wise, opaque seer/peddler of platitudes to elites seeking the comfort of familiar self-serving cliches

Nixon came to power by shrewdly, presciently responding to a very similar social chasm, arguably the same one that still divides us, but which then was provoked by far, far more serious turmoil, albeit before the amplifying and falsifying effect of social media. Nixon understood perfectly the power of resentment - it had informed and inspired his entire life's work, far more so than Trump, who is mostly just playing yet another stock-character on TV.

But resentment clouded Nixon's vision and inevitably resulted in his excesses. He simply could not transcend his rage and fear of humiliation, and, at home and abroad, he lashed out violently, impetuously, and counter-productively. As Kissinger snidely but perhaps knowingly quipped: "Just think what this man could have been if he had been loved."

This is what I worry about with Trump - character matters, especially given that someone like Nixon could only look on with envy at the power that Trump now enjoys. I suspect there is a certain amount of bureaucratic and procedural momentum that will guide and restrain the early days. But the entire world will look at this as a weakness to be tested, prodded, and exploited. How will Trump react to provocation, from China, Iran, or even ISIS, which would love nothing more than to goad the US into overreacting, as we done so reliably for the past 16 years? Having flatterred and legitimized a bunch of ex-Baath/suburban Euro virgins with a flair for the dramatic by escalating them into a global security threat to mobilize our own gullible angry men to serve domestic purposes, can the biggest, most spiteful bull of them all resist seeing red when provoked by a procession of the world's most nimble matadors? Can he afford to be clever, or patient, if it risks looking weak to a furiously emasculated base? This is man with a history of extreme, petty vengeance, after all, like Nixon, but with none of Nixon's intelligence or cunning, or, above all, positive guiding visions to counter-balance the fury.

Hi Mate, I follow what you are saying but there are murderous thugs operating in the Mid East. Do we let them continue and turn a blind eye?

My favourite description of ISIS is in the post at the top by @abelard:

 

[Jib in lad]

 

[Jib in lad]

Interesting and predictable.

 

[JonS]

Shocking. We (well me for one) spend our time arguing over things like Brexit or Remain but this is far worse.

Interesting and predictable.

 

[Clint Planet]

The far left have achieved a majority in Benn's constituency as a result of which Benn now faces deselection for the next Ge. Other campaigns by the far left to grab other seats have not been successful ATM.

By "the far left" do you mean people who are against benefit capping and who opposed the war in Iraq and the bombing of Syria?