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Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

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neil999 said:
true but they still won 3 gen elections in a row...
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They did, but the means by which those elections were won (especially 2005) - increasing the pressure on benefit claimants, increasing the illusion of investment via PFI, ignoring the obvious problems in the economy, ignoring widespread criminality in the media in order to get support / an easy ride, an EU in-out referendum (something first promised by Blair in the 2005 manifesto), ramping up fear via anti-terrorism legislation, party funding that could at best be described as questionable etc - did a great deal of damage to the long term viability of the party; that is why more than half of the membership left.
 
tsubaki said:
They did, but the means by which those elections were won (especially 2005) - increasing the pressure on benefit claimants, increasing the illusion of investment via PFI, ignoring the obvious problems in the economy, ignoring widespread criminality in the media in order to get support / an easy ride, an EU in-out referendum (something first promised by Blair in the 2005 manifesto), ramping up fear via anti-terrorism legislation, party funding that could at best be described as questionable etc - did a great deal of damage to the long term viability of the party; that is why more than half of the membership left.
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i agree they did some terrible things, my fear is a left wing party can just no longer win elections

this is how i have felt since the last election, i really thougth we would have a left leaning labour government or at least a lib/lab coalition...the tories winning a majority in that election really has destroyed my hope in the british public, quite upsetting really
 
tsubaki said:
This is what keeps being said, but it is very questionable how true it is. Take the actual legacy of "New Labour" for example:

i) 220,000 members leaving whilst they were in Government
ii) 4 million votes lost whilst they were in Government
iii) 161 seats lost whilst they were in Government
iv) Scotland transformed from a safe area into one where they have one seat.

1997 is the one genuine victory they can lay claim to, and that was by far and away the most left-wing manifesto that Blair ever ran on (windfall taxes on privatized utilities, a minimum wage etc). Far from Corbyn threatening the future of the party, it is the moderates getting back in control that presents an existential threat to their ongoing existence - they are already threatening to ignore some areas (the few remaining solid Labour areas) because they are "anti-immigrant" and voted against the EU.
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neil999 said:
1997 was astonishing tho, they won an insane amount of seats..so were bound to lose seats in future elections
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tsubaki said:
They did win big in 1997, and any government would have lost some seats afterwards - but as many as they did?
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In 97, Labour won 418 seats. In 2001, 413. Hardly a massacre - but virtually unrepeatable for reasons you all know.
 
tsubaki said:
They did, but the means by which those elections were won (especially 2005) - increasing the pressure on benefit claimants, increasing the illusion of investment via PFI, ignoring the obvious problems in the economy, ignoring widespread criminality in the media in order to get support / an easy ride, an EU in-out referendum (something first promised by Blair in the 2005 manifesto), ramping up fear via anti-terrorism legislation, party funding that could at best be described as questionable etc - did a great deal of damage to the long term viability of the party; that is why more than half of the membership left.
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I would never dispute the damage caused by New Labour.

The question remains is JC the man to repair the damage? He's took Labour in the right direction policy-wise, and forced some important u-turns from the tories. But from where i'm standing, it seems like pure fantasy to think he could lead Labour back into power at the next GE.
 
In times of financial hardship countries shift to the right, when there is little wealth to go round those who have got it want to protect it. We are just at the height of that particular swing of the pendulum. As countries recover financially a social conscious will return and the electorate will then respond accordingly.
I don't believe Britain can elect a proper socialist government again as we have become extremely right wing. Hopefully I am wrong about that and something can be done about the difference between the haves and the have nots.
 

Caolam said:
In times of financial hardship countries shift to the right, when there is little wealth o go round f those who have got it want to protect it. We are just at the height of that particular swing of the pendulum. As countries recover a social conscious will return and the electorate will then respond accordingly.
I don't believe Britain can elect a proper socialist government again as we have become extremely right wing. Hopefully I am wrong about that and something can be done about the difference between he haves and the have more.
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Do you think? I think this recession will be sustained, getting a lot worse before it gets better.
 
Mountfield1985 said:
I would never dispute the damage caused by New Labour.

The question remains is JC the man to repair the damage? He's took Labour in the right direction policy-wise, and forced some important u-turns from the tories. But from where i'm standing, it seems like pure fantasy to think he could lead Labour back into power at the next GE.
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It will certainly be difficult for him in a General Election - all of the press will be against him, and the PLP's opinion is obvious.

However what is important is that he fixes the party - in terms of democratizing decision making, policy formation and candidate selection - and gets it into a position where the quality of policies and of individual members in the PLP goes up.

Lets face it, if the past year has proved anything its that the standard in the PLP (especially at the top) is terribly short of where it needs to be to run the country successfully. Being unable to bring about a coup despite overwhelming numbers, overwhelming press support and ten months to plan it doesn't exactly suggest they will be able to fix complex issues affecting the country.
 
tsubaki said:
It will certainly be difficult for him in a General Election - all of the press will be against him, and the PLP's opinion is obvious.

However what is important is that he fixes the party - in terms of democratizing decision making, policy formation and candidate selection - and gets it into a position where the quality of policies and of individual members in the PLP goes up.

Lets face it, if the past year has proved anything its that the standard in the PLP (especially at the top) is terribly short of where it needs to be to run the country successfully. Being unable to bring about a coup despite overwhelming numbers, overwhelming press support and ten months to plan it doesn't exactly suggest they will be able to fix complex issues affecting the country.
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Can't argue with that.

And anyway, in the continued absence of any other viable candidates, I probably won't have a choice but to stay on board the JC ship!
 
Corbyn is incompetent. He hasn't a clue. He drifts from one disaster to the next. He surrounds himself with obnoxious people. I would not put him in charge of a cake stall at the local market. I have never seen anyone in politics with less grasp of the needs of the people and the country than him. He is an absolute disgrace and those that voted him in should apologise to the other 10 Million Labour supporters......

However Boris and co said please keep him as leader as no matter what mess they cause, Jeremy is sure to make a bigger one the day after............
 

Milkman said:
What would you say the needs of the people are @peteblue? Do you reckon they're into inequality? Austerity? Decimation of the NHS and other public sectors?
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So how does making the Labour party unelectable and a quite useless opposition help inequality,austerity,the NHS and other public sectors..........
 
Mountfield1985 said:
But what does that tell us that we don't already know?

We know Liverpool will vote Labour., as will the other major cities. We know a huge portion of Labours core support are very passionate about JC and will back him to the end. What does it tell you about his chances in the home counties, or his broader appeal in general?

I'd love nothing more than Corbyn as our PM, but I do fear we look at it through our metropolis bubble. The next election won't be won or lost in places like Liverpool. Step outside the big city and how popular is he?
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So do you think Eagle or any of the other none entities can win in these places you mention.
 
neil999 said:
i agree they did some terrible things, my fear is a left wing party can just no longer win elections

this is how i have felt since the last election, i really thougth we would have a left leaning labour government or at least a lib/lab coalition...the tories winning a majority in that election really has destroyed my hope in the british public, quite upsetting really
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Do not understand, are you not British??
 

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