Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

There is a huge difference in sticking up for someone or something and not being willing to pick up the pitchforks and join in with a mob mentality. There is such a thing as acting as a devil's advocate. That is something which encourages debate.

Jumping into the gutter and hurling abuse does nothing. There was a incident between two players, we know very little, there is no conclusive evidence. Both Clubs have acted with great dignity and integrity and have left the FA to investigate something that should transcend Club rivalries.

Why can't we as fans do the same.

Shame the RS fans couldn't have acted with a bit of dignity. No sooner the incident happened they were on twitter scouring Holgate's history to try and rake up some dirt on him, then when they found those comments Holgate made as a kid, some of those weirdo's thought what they had found somehow exonerated Firmino, that's the mentality of the bellends.

 

[radiostar]

Oh look.

If its ok with you, im gonna LOL and call you a dirty liar.

Don't see why but you go ahead and do whatever your comfortable with mate x

 

[Dabluez]

About anything football related?

Definitely - the club turns apparently normal human beings into, vile, egotistical, clueless, victim playing, racism apologists.

That's before we get into the murderous, paving slab throwing, [Phrase removed] amongst them.

As I said, your defence of them, coming from an Evertonian is dead weird.

No it comes from a child of the 80's before all the hatred was fuelled by the likes of Davek. I am old enough to remember the troubles in Ireland that were caused by people spouting similar bile.

The irony of people looking to differentiate between people and spout bile in a thread about racism is unforgivable . Just think for one minute what you have said about Liverpool fans and then think what the reaction would be if you substituted kopite for Black, Jewish, Gay or any other differentiator.

We are all largely working class fans from the same city. If you think supporting one team or another changes your personality and turns you into a monster then it explains why morons like Trump and Farage are having a field day. Divide and conquer.

 

[Dabluez]

Shame the RS fans couldn't have acted with a bit of dignity. No sooner the incident happened they were on twitter scouring Holgate's history to try and rake up some dirt on him, then when they found those comments Holgate made as a kid, some of those weirdo's thought what they had found somehow exonerated Firmino, that's the mentality of the bellends.

I agree completely about the idiocy of scouring Holgate's history and then somehow using it to justify racism. The thing is I also see the idiocy of some of our fans looking to exonerate Holgate for homophobic comments. Of course Holgate's age is a mitigating factor but surely to God we should be making it clear that homophobia is unacceptable in this day and age.

Use Holgate's comments to educate the next generation and make it clear that homophobia is unacceptable. Like wise if Firmino is found guilty then use it to educate the next generation that racism is unacceptable.

I think that is far more sensible than the comments about banning Firmino for life whilst defending Holgate because of his age. We can't pick and choose our principles just because it suits what team we support.

 

[catcherintherye]

No it comes from a child of the 80's before all the hatred was fuelled by the likes of Davek. I am old enough to remember the troubles in Ireland that were caused by people spouting similar bile.

The irony of people looking to differentiate between people and spout bile in a thread about racism is unforgivable . Just think for one minute what you have said about Liverpool fans and then think what the reaction would be if you substituted kopite for Black, Jewish, Gay or any other differentiator.

We are all largely working class fans from the same city. If you think supporting one team or another changes your personality and turns you into a monster then it explains why morons like Trump and Farage are having a field day. Divide and conquer.

Substitute the work Liverpool fan for racist or fascist (which is befitting an awful lot of them) and you see a set of definitions that are probably a bit on the kind side. Frankly likening any Black, Jewish or gay person to that lot would itself be pretty offensive mate.

I understand you trying to be rational. I have tried too. What you get met with is:
1) Being called a nonce
2) Being threatened with a lynching
3) Racist hate speech
4) Accusations of making gestures about Heysel at a match you didn't attend
5) Accusations of singings songs about Hillsborough at a match you didn't attend.

When challenged (politely) on any of these behaviours/lies you just get turned on with more abuse. It's disgusting behaviour, far (and qualitatively) beyond anything on this thread. I'm not going to go on about what I really think of them as I have no desire to lower my standards to their level, but lets be clear who the stain on our city are and develop a sense of perspective when we police our own fans conduct.

 

[catcherintherye]

I was completely correct though wasn't I Dave.

You ignored the content of my post and then went off to call Firmino. Adolf Firmino.

I imagine that was a reference to the German leader responsible for killing 6 million Jews. Are there no depths you will stoop to.

He should;t use hate speech then should he? Of course it's not comparable to murdering 6 million Jewish people, but the best way to honour those deaths is to tackle hate speech with the severity that was missing when it first reared it's ugly head in Germany.

 

[catcherintherye]

I agree completely about the idiocy of scouring Holgate's history and then somehow using it to justify racism. The thing is I also see the idiocy of some of our fans looking to exonerate Holgate for homophobic comments. Of course Holgate's age is a mitigating factor but surely to God we should be making it clear that homophobia is unacceptable in this day and age.

Use Holgate's comments to educate the next generation and make it clear that homophobia is unacceptable. Like wise if Firmino is found guilty then use it to educate the next generation that racism is unacceptable.

I think that is far more sensible than the comments about banning Firmino for life whilst defending Holgate because of his age. We can't pick and choose our principles just because it suits what team we support.

I am not sure I'd ban Firmino for life, but it ought to be a substantial ban. IN principle I agree with you re Holgate and Homophobia which should also be tackled. However he was a minor at the time, that has to be a factor in this. It's not about picking and choosing principles, but we wouldn't punish children for the same offences as an adult.

 

[catcherintherye]

'An FA statement said it was alleged Rodriguez "used abusive and/or insulting words which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race".'

Exactly the same accusation as Holgate's will have been. He clearly called out at Holgate "puta" and then as per Holgates claim a racial epithet.

There can be no distinction here.

The VERY LEAST Firmino is looking at is a ban for abuse.

The absolute mutants who support LFC were (and still are) trying to pass off the language he used as some sort of legendary behaviour. The blunt reality is, it is misogynistic hate speech. The thick goons tend to be "he didn't use hateful language, he only called him a hatefully aggravated term". Of course trying to explain the stupidity of this to a bigoted and stupid brain (so essentially the brain of most Kopites) cannot comprehend that fairly straightforward level of complexity.

You will then get lads from TAW (allegedly) throwing words like "liable" about as a defence for them not making a statement condemning racism/misogynstic hate speech, or guys from the redmen tv sharing the video with the hate speech, with the language in bold as if it should be celebrated, and the toe rags trying to take some imaginary moral high ground as a result. They are some of the better ones too. Utter scum, dragging society back to the 1930's.

 

[davek]

Seconded @davek. The word means something different in Portuguese than it does in Spanish. Maybe a claim could be made for it being abuse with a reference to sexual orientation or something of the sort.

I dont know what that would be, but he is bang to right's on the puta abuse.

I'm 100% backing that Firmino then brought skin colour into it.

I'd say a good result would be an eventual 10 game ban. Four for the Puta abuse.

 

[davek]

Holgate maintains he heard racist absuse, the ref and all but one player near say they heard nothing. The one player who now says he heard something initially said he heard nothing and changed his statement.
Evidence is still being sought. As there is now one "witness" they feel they can't just close the case. As yet they have nothing.

^^

From a mate of mine who works in football.

How many first hand witnesses to the Rodriguez abuse?

 

[Dabluez]

Substitute the work Liverpool fan for racist or fascist (which is befitting an awful lot of them) and you see a set of definitions that are probably a bit on the kind side. Frankly likening any Black, Jewish or gay person to that lot would itself be pretty offensive mate.

I understand you trying to be rational. I have tried too. What you get met with is:
1) Being called a nonce
2) Being threatened with a lynching
3) Racist hate speech
4) Accusations of making gestures about Heysel at a match you didn't attend
5) Accusations of singings songs about Hillsborough at a match you didn't attend.

When challenged (politely) on any of these behaviours/lies you just get turned on with more abuse. It's disgusting behaviour, far (and qualitatively) beyond anything on this thread. I'm not going to go on about what I really think of them as I have no desire to lower my standards to their level, but lets be clear who the stain on our city are and develop a sense of perspective when we police our own fans conduct.

Isn't the point that we need to get away from the tit for tat nonsense that fuels the divide. If you look at any divide you will always see people who are adamant that it is the other sides fault. All fan bases have their share of idiots, as you say some far more than others.

Of course there are some horrible Liverpool fans but then again we also have fans who follow us who are idiots. Get past the bile and fans tend to have far more in common than we think.

 

[tsubaki]

I am not sure I'd ban Firmino for life, but it ought to be a substantial ban. IN principle I agree with you re Holgate and Homophobia which should also be tackled. However he was a minor at the time, that has to be a factor in this. It's not about picking and choosing principles, but we wouldn't punish children for the same offences as an adult.

It depends what the circumstances are - if this was just Firmino reacting to being invited to join the crowd and saying something in the heat of the moment, it certainly should be less than the four games Terry got for a far worse outburst and a lot less than the 8 games that Sewerz got, both which had less mitigation than this.

However if it had been going on all game (which would perhaps explain why Holgate put him amongst the RS in the first place) then a bigger ban would be justified.

 

[catcherintherye]

Isn't the point that we need to get away from the tit for tat nonsense that fuels the divide. If you look at any divide you will always see people who are adamant that it is the other sides fault. All fan bases have their share of idiots, as you say some far more than others.

Of course there are some horrible Liverpool fans but then again we also have fans who follow us who are idiots. Get past the bile and fans tend to have far more in common than we think.

My point is it's not tit for tat. It's 90% of their fans who are reproducing sterotypes that are at best very unhelpful to the anti-racism and at worse are racist.

You have then got Evertonians trying to challenge such behaviour being defamed, abused and having disgusting accusations being put about them, and being subjected to threats of acute violence. If thats "tit for tat" for you then fair enough. I call it what it is though, bullying behaviour from utter scum, re-enforced and strengthened by their football clubs stance. You may want to deflect or minimise from their behaviour, but you will never silence the truth or the lived experience of what Evertonians have suffered at their hands for doing nothing other than politely trying to challenge racism.

 

[catcherintherye]

It depends what the circumstances are - if this was just Firmino reacting to being invited to join the crowd and saying something in the heat of the moment, it certainly should be less than the four games Terry got for a far worse outburst and a lot less than the 8 games that Sewerz got, both which had less mitigation than this.

However if it had been going on all game (which would perhaps explain why Holgate put him amongst the RS in the first place) then a bigger ban would be justified.

I'm not sure on that mate, if he has used hate speech it should be an 8 game ban (the Terry case was a joke and we should be avoiding that). There's no such thing as justification for hate speech. Given it's the clubs numerous offence it should be longer than 8 really.

I also think LFC need to be tackled as a result of this behaviour too. I'd say a 3-5 year ban from the FA Cup to avoid them bringing shame on the trophy again (after the Oldham affair) would suffice. That would be proportionate and reasonable and may begin to get through the knuckle heads that racism isn't acceptable.

But this is the FA we are talking about, so expect them to get off lightly and racism to be ignored.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Holgate maintains he heard racist absuse, the ref and all but one player near say they heard nothing. The one player who now says he heard something initially said he heard nothing and changed his statement.
Evidence is still being sought. As there is now one "witness" they feel they can't just close the case. As yet they have nothing.

^^

From a mate of mine who works in football.

If thats true it means.... a witness doesnt count KOFF FA
haha you corrupted piece of s***

If that would really be the case why wait ...they should Make an statement and release Firminho from Bening a suspect.
Why didnt Madley book Holgate? Because he heard Something that balanced the scales in his mind